Episode 59: Ron Shevlin

Intro: I've had the privilege of being in and around banking for more than 50 years. Lots of changes during that time. We've gone from Ledger's to laptops, typewriters to technology. One thing, however, remains the same. Banking is a people business. And I'll be talking with those people that make banking great here on Jack Rants With Modern bankers. 

Welcome to Jack Rants With Modern Bankers brought to you by RelPro, and Vertical IQ. Each week I feature top voices in financial services from bankers and consultants, to best selling authors and many more. The goal of this program is simple, to provide insights, success practices and to bring new ideas to the table that you can use to maximize your results In 2024.

Jack Hubbard : I was introduced to my guest today Ron Shevlin, nearly 20 years ago when I first read GonzoBanker, I was intrigued by the title and yet more fascinated by Ron's straightforward rants and practical content. Ron earned a BA in economics from Binghamton University, and an MBA from University of Texas in Austin. He spent most of his career in research from Forrester in the ICT group, to his current role as Chief Research Officer at Cornerstone advisors. In 2015, Ron wrote a best selling book, smarter bank. And we're gonna go back to the future around that book today and talk about what's happening now, based on what happened, then, look for some key ideas to make 2024 better in your community bank, check out this interview with Ron Shevlin. On Jack rants with modern bankers. Here we go. 

So as I mentioned in the intro this is certainly not my first introduction to Ron Shevlin. I've interviewed him several times before and love his writing. And he's, he's pretty direct. And so you're going to hear a lot of good things today about what's going on in banking. And, and, uh, welcome, Ryan, glad to have you again.

Ron Shevlin: Thanks for having me back, Jack.

Jack Hubbard : You know, since we've talked, Cornerstone has expanded and good for you, and a lot of good businesses do talk about some of the things that you do now, in 2024 to help banks.

Ron Shevlin: I think we do a lot, I think part of our main focus is to get them strategically aligned and focused on the things they should be doing, and how that intersects with technology. And sometimes that's not even about technology, because we help a lot from an economic perspective with contract negotiation and renegotiation and sometimes it's not that technology focused because we're really looking at business processes and helping them benchmark and understand how they might match up to the rest of the industry and their peers but, you know, a lot of what we're doing is really the focus of your company, they make better use of technology to protect and grow their business.

Jack Hubbard :  I was introduced to you by another banker, and we've said, you know, I got this GonzoBanker newsletter, and you really ought to read it. And I've started to read it and read it and every edition that comes out, I pour through, talk about how that got started and what is GonzoBanker?

Ron Shevlin:  So Gonzo banker is basically a Cornerstone blog. It's been around for probably close to 20 years now. I've been at Cornerstone eight and a half and it preceded me by a whole lot. In fact, it was kind of what attracted me to Cornerstone in the first place. I was a reader too. And the name comes from, you know, the Hunter Thompson, gonzo journalism. One of the Cornerstones founders and our president is Steve Williams. He was actually a journalism major in school. I think he was a big Hunter S Thompson fan and a fan of the whole Gonzo journalism which was about two things. It was about not just reporting the news, but being in the middle of the news and being in the middle of the action. And the second piece was about brutal honesty. 

And, you know, I had started writing this marketing blog a long time ago, I had kind of developed a bit of a reputation for being a truth teller. And when I saw cornerstones blog, I was like, Oh my gosh, I have a you know, a fellow fellow truth teller. So that's what we kind of really pride ourselves in that you know, we're not kissing up to anybody in the industry. Telling it the way it is, and but with a strong hint and tinge of so what it's not just enough to tell the world look, this is what's happening. We want to tell them look, here's here's the [inaudible]

Jack Hubbard :  Yeah, that's important. You know, there are a lot of people out there that rant and, and, and they just go on to hear themselves talk or write, you actually have some action plans at the end of articles that can kind of help. Okay, here are some step by step things that you can do. We're going to talk about…

Ron Shevlin:  I like to rant too, though Jack, I just want to make everybody clear. I'd like to rant too.

Jack Hubbard :  You're going to today, I'm sure what to talk about. But you're ranting is one thing. Boxing is another and I'm just fascinated when I went to your profile, and I looked at your background, you have boxing gloves with your name on it, there must be a story there.

Ron Shevlin:  There is a company in Minnesota, there's actually a town in Minnesota called Shevlin, Minnesota and the name of the store was this company, they are no longer around, but they've made boxing gloves and boxing equipment. And they put Shevlin on it. And when I saw that picture, I thought, what better way to kind of, you know, let people know, hey, this is Chevron's page, but also to kind of convey the notion. Hey, you got a problem with me? Well, let's, you know, you don't like something I said, let me know. I'm not looking for a physical fight, but happy to get into a discussion or an argument on things. I don't think Jack we argue enough back about things and I'm not arguing to prove I'm right. I'm arguing to find out what's the truth? What's the reality? If all you're ever doing is coming to your conclusion of reality, based on your own thoughts and processes, you're missing out on something and you got to hear other people. So I think the boxing gloves to me are kind of symbolic, “come on, fight with me. argue with me. Tell me what you think. I really do want to hear it.”

Jack Hubbard : One of the interesting fights that it's going on now is mergers and acquisitions. It's, or there are other a lot of mergers going on. Is that a merger of equals? big banks are gonna start getting involved. What's your take on the kind of the tenor or the outlook for 2024? Around merger? You're pretty well on top of this?

Ron Shevlin: Yeah, I think there's a lot more optimism and interest in mergers. In fact, I say I think I kind of say I should say I know by the data. We just published our annual banking report, we asked about mergers and acquisitions. A funny thing is, if I didn't actually put it in the report this year, I cut it out to streamline the report a bit. But there's a lot more optimism in the industry about the environment being ripe for mergers. But that's Jack, the sort of the operational and financial view. There's a huge issue with mergers and acquisitions in the industry, because we have a government whose policies towards banking are not particularly favorable to the industry. And they're doing a lot to slow down even the most mundane mergers that are going on. So there's a bit of a rock and a hard place in the merger world right now a lot of interest in merging, gaining scale through mergers, gaining operational efficiencies, but a regulatory environment that is just flat out not not very friendly towards mergers and acquisitions in the banking world. 

Jack Hubbard : That certainly hurts. Because when you have two banks, a TD and a first horizon as an example, and there's probably a lot of reasons why that didn't go through, but the customers hear about it, the employees hear about it, there's all kinds of turmoil around it. And that's true to have community banks that might emerge. And now because of the government regulations, it's taking longer and longer. And I gotta believe Ron, and you're into this every day, this has got to affect the way customers look at banks, and what are they going to do more business with either of those banks and how employees look at their future? This has got to be a very emotional, long term time for people when two mergers are starting to come together here.

Ron Shevlin: Yeah, let me tie this into something else. Jack, if you would, let me know, for the past 25 years, there's been this huge focus on customer experience, customer experience. I published my predictions post a few weeks ago, and I said, Man, I'm sick and tired here about customer experience. It's time we started hearing about employee experience. Because the employee experience it's not just about taking good care of employees. It's about their operational environment and the technologies and tools, you go into a typical bank, and most employees are using, I don't know, four to 12 different systems. 

Now, my point of bringing this in and tying it back to what you're saying is that the ability for employees to provide good customer service when their own technology environment is messed up, it's hard enough. Now factor into the fact there's this uncertainty about jobs, uncertainty about the future, how good is how good their customer service is going to be? How good is their motivation going to be, the more of these things get dragged out the poor, not just the employee experiences, but that's having a negative impact on the customer experience as well. 

Jack Hubbard : And you were all over this recently, because you were out at the acquire or be acquired a conference. Obviously, there's a lot of talk around mergers and acquisitions, there may be how to do it and things like that. But talk about the other things, talk about some of the tangential things that you heard out there at the conference.

Ron Shevlin:  Yeah, it's interesting that this was the 30th year of acquire or be acquire, often referred to as AOBA . And when it was started, 30 years ago, it was very narrowly focused on acquisitions and mergers and bringing together bankers, who were looking to buy other bankers, banks and bankers who were looking to be acquired. But over the 30 years, it has really evolved to be just an industry conference. And a lot of the focus this year was on deposits and deposit gathering. I don't know there must have been at least six different sessions about the positive gathering, another six on artificial intelligence, and how that's going to impact the industry. And then a few of the really smart folks actually married deposit gathering and AI together in their presentations. So very heavy on AI and deposit gathering. And I think the third thread I'd kind of throw out there as a major theme of the report was the lending environment and how to grow that a bit more than what we're seeing today.

Jack Hubbard : Yeah, interesting. Well, you're talking about the lending environment, then a positive environment, that's going to vary depending on what's going on in the economy, certainly year to year. Back in 2015, you wrote a book called Smarter bank. And I noticed the post recently on LinkedIn that you've kind of brought it up as almost, it's the ninth anniversary and things like that. Boy, a lot of things have changed in those nine years and we certainly don't have time to recap them off. I'm curious about one thing that you wrote about in 2015, that is still extremely viable today?

Ron Shevlin:  Well, that's your question? I thought you're gonna tell me, what was it you saw? I know. So a lot has changed. I think we were kind of early on and seeing the changes in behavior. So that's been more evolutionary. But Jack, I will tell you the one thing or maybe two things, I think, that have not changed in nine years, is I think a lot of the in a lot of in the book, I was really trying to harp on the importance of data, and the ability to use data to drive a lot of decisions, and have a better view of both the customers, your own organization, the industry, where things were going, you know, I think as consultants, you know, people just look listen to Yeah, you just want to make money off of us to, you know, get our data and stuff. But, you know, nine years ago, I was arguing, look, you really get this in place. And part of the reason Jack is because as we've seen the explosion in technology, and especially in small business consumer in particular, you know, one of the things that I think most bankers are a little bit deceived or deluded about is that they think well, yeah, oh, let me give you this example. 

I got a call from a buddy of mine. Well, about a year and a half ago, we worked at one of the big core vendors. We said, Ron, we just did some research, I think you're going to be really interested in that. We found that the average consumer has six to eight financial relationships. As a dude do not go public with that data. You are off by an order of magnitude of six to eight. Consumers under the age of 40, even 45 have 30 to 40 relationships. They might only have 10 or 12 accounts, but they're using tools to manage their credit scores. They're managed using tools to analyze their bills. They're using tools to do automated deposits and savings and investments. They're using all these different tools and those are relationships. Where Jack Do you go to Starbucks? Yes, you have. We are an Orbitz app. Yep, money on it. Yeah, that's a financial relationship. Okay, Panera CVS kind of money apps you've got for all these things. And we're using Venmo, Zelle, and PayPal and all these others. And those are all financial relationships. 

And so I'm not sure I can go back and say, See, I predicted that I said this was going to happen. But there was early on and the issue, Jack comes back to data, if you don't know your customers, or where their relationships are, and where the money is coming in and going out from you don't know your customer. And I don't mean that from a regulatory perspective. I mean it from a business perspective. And that is very true, both from a consumer and in particular from a small business perspective. So I think, you know, I was harping a lot about data back then. And you know, the behaviors of consumers of using technology. I think I got it. I think I was least on the right track nine years ago.

Jack Hubbard : And it's only expanded. And certainly, we can talk more about that, as you mentioned, AI, but I want to go back to your banking 2024 report. I love that you look forward, you're a very forward looking guy thinking guy. And it's really helped the industry a lot. Talk about what you see going forward and 2024 A few of the snippets of the banking 2024 report.

Ron Shevlin:  The theme Jack, up the 2024 report actually plays off of the theme of the 2023 report, which was writing the facing the headwinds riding the tail winds. And the idea back at the beginning of 2023 of the cover picture was a guy on a boat in the sea with the waves and, you know, didn't know which direction he was going to be taken. And I think that's even though that was published before the whole SVB crisis and all of that. The idea was that, you know, there were some economic headwinds, but there were a lot of technology developments that were tailwinds pushing the industry by 2024. 

The theme of the report is finding the next wave to ride. And the idea was that well, okay. The storms of 2023 have pushed financial institutions into a windless Cove. And now they're like, Okay, where do we go from here? And I think that kind of captures a checklist. I've been an analyst for 27 years, I've been in this financial services industry for 25 years. For a long time, I've gone into banks and credit unions and said, look, the world is changing, you have to change and they've often let them in, hey, we're doing really well. Then we'll write it out. And no more. In the 25 years, I focused on banking and worked with banks and credit unions. I think this is the first time I'm really seeing banks and credit unions come to me and say, We really need to hone and develop a new strategy for the future. The strategy of Yeah, we, you know, our people are great, and we provide great service, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda, they're finally recognizing it doesn't cut it, they can't prove that their people are better. They can't prove that their services are better, and in fact, are actually really struggling to find and hire people. So I think they're the idea that what's the next wave to ride from a strategy perspective, from a technology perspective? You may have your strategy in water, but what's the new AI technology or you know that the new tech and the other technologies you're going to use to propel you invite ride that wave with the idea jack that waves end fairly quickly. 

So after this next two to three year wave that gets us through 2024 2025 and maybe into 2026? What's next? Is blockchain there you know, are we really now mature with AI? Do we have autonomous everything out in the world? How's that going to impact banking and insurance and all these types of things? So I think you have to kind of refocus, you know, the, I think most physicists don't get off of that seven to 10 year business plan, even three to three to five years might be too long. But one year is not long enough, you have to think of it as a wave that you're writing. You're gonna wave it, write it for a while, but then you need to start looking for the next wave. 

And this might be a little bit inspired by the fact that my wife and I got a chance to go out to Hawaii for the first time last month. We were watching the guys you know, sitting in the water waiting for that next wave to ride.Are you a commercial or business bank are looking to build relationships with small and midsize companies roleplay as a business development and relationship management solution being used by bankers to find new prospects, learn more about them and keep tabs on them as well as your existing customers want to learn more go to Raul product comm to schedule a demo Today.

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Jack Hubbard : So interesting. Well, one of the waves that the banks are trying to ride and avoid being knocked off their board is AI and you've mentioned it a couple of times, at a recent banking school, I did spot 190 kids in the class. And I said, How many of you are able to use ChetGPT at the office and to raise their hand? This is not going away. I'm curious what you're seeing about community banks especially, and how they're allowing their people to use AI as part of the process. And if they are, you know, how do you get around that risk and all the other things that could happen?

Ron Shevlin: Okay, Jack, let's start with terminology. We have a term. What we've got here is a failure to communicate to quote Paul Newman, even though he didn't say that in the movie, but we've got a problem with terminology Jack. The problem is that up until November of 2022, we in the industry use the term AI generically to encompass a wide range of technologies. Then ChatGPT was introduced, the term generative AI became very popular, and it flipped flopped and became the umbrella term. Not everything in AI is generative AI, and AI technologies are actually very different. Machine learning is very different from conversational AI, which is very different from generative AI, which is very different from robotic process automation. And then you get into a bunch of things that are AI that aren't even really that pertinent and banking, like visioning, and things like that. 

So, chatGPT is an example of generative AI. Generative AI is nothing more Jack, nothing more than AI technology that generates an output. That output can be text, voice, music, art code, it produces an output, the people that are getting all worked up, oh, generative AI is biased. No, that's machine learning, that produces lending decisions that could be biased or biased decisions. And by the way, machine learning and AI isn't biased. It's the data that goes into it that drives the biasness. If I can quote that, you know, craft a word there. 

So it isn't the technology that's biased. It's the data. And if we've been biased as humans and in our decision making, especially in lending, because the data we've been given is biased. So it isn't technology that is biased. And this is why there's this, you know why we have so many problems in dealing with this, any bank that is limiting its people's use of chatGPT or other things like Bard or other programs like that, Jack? Those people are crazy. Not only should they be encouraging the use, but developing by giving them some guidelines for the use.

Jack, I'm not going to try to guess how old you are. My wife always gets pissed off when I let people know how old I am. But I was fond of saying last year in presentations that chatGPT was to 90, it was to 2023 What Lotus 123 was to 1983 when it came out. Now the problem is you got a lot of people under the age of 14 Go what was Lotus123? Okay, it was the predecessor to Microsoft Excel Oh, it was a spreadsheet, I got it. But when Lotus 123 came out, the level of productivity in a lot of people rose because now they had a tool to automate calculations. But they used it for word processing, people used it to keep lists and databases. You could not predict what people were going to do with it, but it made them more productive. 

Jack, this is exactly what chatGPT and a lot of these generative AI tools promise to make you more productive. But just like in 1983 when these spreadsheets came out, nothing's perfect. And the problem was people hard coded calculation errors into spreadsheets. They didn't document their spreadsheets, there was very little consistency in the look and feel of spreadsheets across the organization. And we need to learn the lessons of Lotus 123 and 1983 in 2023 and 2024 now that there needs to be some guidelines. If you're going to use chatGPT that's fine, but you need to document what your prompts were. And keep track of these things. So there's some paper trail if you will Have to go back and understand you'll have somebody to have some training. Instead of discouraging the use, they should be encouraging the use and say, Hey, let me teach you how to do prompts and prompt engineering. 

It's ridiculous Jack, there are people out there who are making hundreds of 1000s of dollars holding themselves out as prompt engineers, they're gonna go by the same Wayside that the webmasters went back in the late 90s. Remember that everybody has to have a webmaster, that's going to be gone in a year or two, because people's skills will increase. The bottom line and I keep reaching this industry into any bank or credit union that will give me a chance to tell them is that you need to be encouraging your use of these general AI tools, because they are productivity enhancers. That is the game here, Jack is about productivity, enhancement, and speed. You know, my wife gets on my case, she goes, Yeah, you published a blog post. And well, why don't you just ask ChatGPT to do it for you, because it won't do as good a job. But what it can do for me and can do for anybody else is get me to a certain stage faster than I could if I just sat there with a blank piece of paper. 

So I've got to give myself I know I'm ready. See, I told you I'd be ranting at some love here. We've got a buddy who works at a technology company here in the Boston area. Ron said, I gotta show you what my intern is doing. She looks at and uses your blog posts and posts to identify the key trends in the industry then asks chatGPT to you know, write a certain amount and then applies, you know, interviews us to, to hone the article. So it is not just a total ripoff. 

But this is a 23,24 year old intern with no experience in the industry. And she is pulling together really good content using chatGPT tools not just to generate and write the article, but to identify what are the key trends that she should be writing about. And then bringing it to the not you know, the experts in our company to kind of shape it from it, they don't have to write it. This is about Speed, Jack. It is about getting you how long it would have taken her she had to sit down and write it on her own, it would take forever.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, and she had no knowledge about banking, and that would never have changed.

Ron Shevlin:  like that. And then that gets a lot better knowledge about this. But there are so many tools and plugins, I don't know if you remember back in the day, they were all these plugins for Lotus 123. And similar to chatGPT, things like auto GPT that automate the whole process of doing something go take a look at South State Bank, I haven't seen any bank that does as great a job of using general AI tools. Got it, you got to get Chris Nichols from South state on your show. He's absolutely brilliant, one of my favorite guys in the industry. And he's also a great writer, by the way you feel you should be right reading what he's been writing. But he talks about what the South state is doing and how it experiments. 

Now, here's the thing. These tools aren't perfect, there's still a lot of hallucinations and errors because the data that goes in so you can't just turn over your you know, your marketing world to chat GPT but it can get you to a point in the process faster than you ever could have imagined. The technology would have helped you do that.

Jack Hubbard:  Well, yeah. And you're certainly right about Chris, everybody I talk to in the industry. I told them they got to follow Chris and I was very honored. The first blog of the year, Chris and I were able to co author a blog about books that people should be reading. And he is definitely on the show for sure if he's already scheduled. So he's You're right about that. So I got we're running out of time. I want to ask you one more question. Hey, you, you've talked about out at the conference, that most recent conference, you're at that deposit obviously was a big deal. Well, to me deposits and treasury management are so intertwined. I'm curious. And if you want to go on a rant about this, that's great, because I always do when I talk to banks, we do not have enough people in treasury management, the gearing ratio is way out of whack. You've got 10 commercial lenders for one, treasury management person. Treasury Management, people are not proactive. They know where the deposits are. Let's get them out and do some prospecting. I'm curious when you talk to community banks, what's their take on treasury management and what's your take on it?

Ron Shevlin:  I think most bankers are just tactful and politically smart enough not to kind of diss and downplay treasury management, especially if we're talking small business for small business or for mid market. For the larger I don't think there's any downplaying of the importance of that. But I think in the small business, you know, they talk about it, but I'm not sure they're really giving it the attention they should check. I think the primary issue is really a cultural and organizational one here. 

Most banks, most community banks, maybe I shouldn't use the word most, for sure. I am not sure what percentage are just so solely focused on lending, that they look at the other functions in the organization lines of business, as just feeders for lending. If they even do that, secure? For sure, you know, they look at retail as just bringing me deposits. And to a certain extent, I think they may be looking at the treasury management side of the business as you okay, do what you do. But, you know, we need the deposits to feed, you know, our lending business. And they don't look at it as a sort of a standalone profit generator or attractor, to the bank, and I think this is part of the problem. 

And so the issue becomes, Jack, you want to grow your business, your banker, you want to grow your business, you know, the money, the profits are really driven by lending. How much money can you really afford? You know, you've got a certain amount of money to grow the business. And I can't tell you how many times in strategic planning meetings and board meetings I hear, well, we just need a guy out in that region we did guy. And that's not a sexist thing. It could be a woman, but you know, we need somebody out there. They don't think, gee, if we grew our treasury management business and differentiated it, we could attract more small and midsize businesses who would then be more likely to do business with us. And by the way, there's a lot of logic to that. Because if we do know why people borrow money, Jack, to spend it, most people don't borrow money and are sick. 

They borrow it to spend now. If I know what you're spending your money on, I have a better understanding of what you might need to borrow. So instead of waiting for that loan application to come in, I might be able to as a treasury management person, say, Jack, your cash flow is starting to look like this, you know, let's get a line of credit in here and do something and be more proactive. Jack, I think the smarter bankers that in the community bank area that I'm seeing are those that have understood and recognize that they have a huge, huge opportunity by integrating their products and services into these vertical SAS applications. 

Almost every business whether it's small business, midsize business, uses technology that is industry specific. You and I are fortunate we still have our hair, we we we schedule that hair appointment, and we get a text message confirming that that text message is not coming from the beauty parlor or salon, it's coming from a company like Vergara, I think it's called that is a vertical SAS application that many beauty salons use. They haven't figured out how to use text and stuff that they're using a vertical SAS application that runs their business. And more and more bankers and the vertical SAS application companies are learning, hey, we could do a lot more to integrate banking services into our applications. It's a win win for everybody, it drives more utilization of the system, bankers have a new distribution channel. And by the way, if you ever look at the square now called Block, that's exactly what they've been doing in the retail space for the past 10 years. So it's about distribution channels, Jack and expanding distribution. And there's a way for banks to really kind of grow their business by embedding the treasury management capabilities into the actions that prospective customers and their own customers and clients are already using today.

Jack Hubbard: So I told you at the beginning that you were gonna get some brilliant ideas that were actionable from somebody who forgot more in this industry that a lot of people know. If you're a community bank, get run in to talk to your board. I know a lot of banks that have done that. It's just a phenomenal eye opener. If you're a community bank a mid size bank cornerstone advisors does a lot of tremendous things. So, given all that. How do people get a hold of your Ron?

Ron Shevlin: Best place to get a hold of me is on Linkedin. Just look up, Ron Shevlin, or email. Easiest email for me is [email protected]. Or look up Fintech Snark tank, and that'll find me, I'm sure, in a hurry, and I don't think anybody else is tied to the the words Fintech and Snark. In this industry, like I am.

Jack Hubbard: Or go to Linkedin. Look for Ron Shevlinand look for the boxing gloves, and you'll know you're on the right profile, Ron Shevlin. Thanks so much for giving us your time today. It's always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

Outro: Thanks for listening to this episode of Jack Rants With Modern Bankers. And my great guest, Ron Shevlin. This and every program is brought to you by our great friends at RelPro and Vertical IQ. Join us next time for more special guests bringing you marketing, sales and leadership insights and ideas that will provide your bank or credit union with that competitive edge you need to succeed in 2024 and beyond.

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