Season 2, Episode 1: John Witkowski

Jack Hubbard: Banking, what a great industry. It's been at the heart of our economy since day one, fueling growth and helping America thrive. The bank of North America was our first bank, established by Robert Morris Way back in 1781. Over the years, banks have dotted our landscape in money centers and small towns where community banks have been a great partner. They've helped businesses grow, become a vital part of the communities they serve, and making families feel secure. We've sure come a long way from those old school ledgers, and now we offer cutting edge technology solutions. Regardless of all these advancements, banking remains a people business. 

I've been in and around our industry for over 52 years, racking up over 5 million air miles, spreading the gospel of performance, culture, development, and trust based sales conversations. I've had the unique privilege to train and coach over 80,000 bankers, speak at state and national banking conferences in 49 states, and teach at 13 of the nation's preeminent banking schools. Along the way, I've made countless friends. Now, as a cancer survivor, it's time for me to give back. One way I'm paying it forward is through this program. Jack Rants with Modern Bankers.

It's year two of Jack Rants with Modern Bankers. I'm Jack Hubbard, chief experience officer of The Modern Banker, and every week I feature special guests to help improve your sales efforts and marketing approach, your performance culture, and your bottom line. It's always brought to you by our great friends at RelPro and vertical IQ. We begin year two by featuring one of my best friends in the industry, John Witkowski. John earned a BA in economics from Columbia University. I met him in the midst of his career at Fleet bank and then on to Bank of America where he launched a highly successful program that we're going to talk about today, and it's a very unique one. John was also CEO of Wyoming County bank in upstate New York and regional president of Five Star bank. 

In 2014, John became president and CEO of the independent bankers of New York State. And I've spoken several times for him and his great team up there. I want to talk about banking today with John Witkowski and some football. You see, John was an amazing quarterback at Columbia University and a baseball player, too. John holds several Columbia and Ivy League passing records. John was a 6th round draft choice of the Detroit Lions in 1984, played for the Houston Oilers as well in the NFL, along with the London Monarchs and the Detroit Drive before hanging up those cleats in 1991. As the 2024 season kicks off, we get behind the NFL curtain around the draft. The training camp and lifetime relationships you build in that league. We'll talk some banking, too, on this episode of Jack Rants with Modern Bankers, featuring John Witkowski.

Here we go. Well, as I mentioned in the introduction, I've known John Witkowski for over 30 years. He's a great friend, and was a great banker and now a terrific leader for a trade association in New York that we're going to talk about. But I'm so glad to have you, on the program, John, our very first one of 2024 to talk a little NFL football. John, great to see you.

John Witkowski: Good to see you, Jack. And, looking forward to having a conversation.

Jack Hubbard: Well, this should be fun. Let's go back, take us back in the history books. You're at the Lindenhurst New York high school, the Bulldogs, and you were playing football. And I'm always curious about an athlete and what was the trigger? When did you start to say, you know what, I think I'd like to play in the NFL. Take us back to Lindenhurst High School.

John Witkowski: Well, you know, as a kid growing up, you always have the dreams of playing some kind of major league sport, right. I was fortunate to play football, baseball and basketball at the high school level. And I played football and baseball for a couple years at the college level. So I just enjoyed the sports. Didn't know what would come of it. You know, we ran a, wing tee in high school. So it wasn't really something that we used the throwing skills, my throwing skills much, but, we threw a couple of passes and had some fun with it, you know, when the recruiters started to come around, I was getting recruited for a few sports. And, it just got to a point where I think it was, I just wanted

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John Witkowski: to play in college. I just wanted to play in college. And I didn't care if it was football, basketball or baseball, but football, and baseball seemed to be my two best sports. So I had some conversations with people. I was never their top choice as a quarterback, in college from some of the majority major universities. But, I did get recruited by a couple of Ivy League schools. And, that's really what made me interested.

Jack Hubbard: So the wing t is a running offense, and you mentioned you didn't throw the ball too much, but you hold twelve, or did hold twelve passing records for Columbia University, the Lions, ironically enough, and in 1984, you were the 160th pick of the NFL draft that year. And you went to the Detroit Lions. You mentioned that you didn't pass much in high school. So how did it come to pass that you recruited and ended up setting all these passing records at Columbia?

John Witkowski: Well, when I say we didn't pass, we probably passed between 15 and 20 times a game in high school, you know. So compared to my college or the pro level at that point, that was, you know, that was not much. You know, it wasn't, it was back in the late seventies and it was more of a running game back then. But, you know, I was fortunate enough to have a good arm, showcase my arm a little bit. There were actually a few coaches from Long island, who coached at the high school and college level that took an interest in me. And an interesting story is that my cousin, my father had a twin brother and my cousin played for Berner High School, which is in Massapequa, a couple of towns over. And Reef Schneider, Bob Riefschnider, who was a great navy football player, recruited me and he knew me because we scrimmaged against burner high school and he ended up going to Columbia. So he came down and recruited me. 

He saw me during the high school years and it was just fortunate for me that he went on to move on to Columbia and become one of my coaches there. Again, it's all, you know what, it's the luck of the draw where you are and, you know what you're doing during that time, and people who recognize you. And we didn't have football camps like they do now. You didn't go out and, you know, showcase yourself and see these different camps. So you really had the luck of the jaw and through people's word. And, that's how I got recruited out of, out of high school. And again, I always make fun of this because there were a number of different Ivy League schools that came to me, and I was fortunate enough to at least visit them and go do that. But those coaches ended up at Columbia at one point, and I was in a room after I graduated and I said, wait, you recruited me. Wait, you recruited me, you know, and it was just one of those things where, you know, life has a funny way of turning things around sometimes, but, they all, zombie plague, Columbia, we held a number of records, not only Columbia, Ivy League and national records, for, for a number of years. And, we were fortunate enough to do it.

Jack Hubbard: Well, you talk about luck and I think there's a lot to it. But John, I've known you a long time. You're a hard worker. When you have a task, you accomplish it on a world class level, and you build a lot of relationships, and that's what you're doing independently. Ah, bankers of New York state right now. So this all has to come together. Life is serendipitous, but you do create your own future if you want to, and you did. So, as I mentioned, six round draft choice, 1984, the Detroit Lions. Take us back to that night. Where were you? How did you get the call? What was going on on draft night in 1984?

John Witkowski: Well, it's kind of funny because, was my senior year in college. You know, that was my year. I graduated four years ago. I didn't get a fifth year. You didn't get athletic scholarships in the Ivy league. So my parents were kind enough to pay for some of them to take out some loans and get all that stuff done. But the day of the draft, it's not like it is today. The day of the draft, you had landlines, and I gave my number to whoever. I went to a combine, and they took down all my information. You had no idea whether you were going to get drafted or not. and they did it in one day. So you're sitting around from 09:00 or 08:00 in the morning, and they're going through the draft, and there's no social media, there's no tv, there's no. You're not hearing the draft at all, so you're sitting around and waiting. My parents came in. 

My family came into my college dorm room. I had, obviously, some of my teammates from columbia, a lot of my high school buddies came, in, in a small dorm room. We're just enjoying the day, not knowing whether it was going to happen or not. And, every time the phone rang, somebody would pick it up and go, hey, wait, you want to take this one? I'm like, stop doing it. You know, it was kind of one of those things. Well, finally, it was probably around 05:00 or so, the phone rang, and one of my buddies, Scotty, picked it up, and he said, Whitley, he goes, you want to take this one? I go, come on, Scotty, stop. He goes, no, I think you should take this one. 

So I took the phone, and everybody was out, you know, in the room, and I went into the bathroom, and Monty Clark was on the other end from the Detroit Lions, and he goes, John, what do you think? You want to become a Detroit lion? I'm like, absolutely, a coach. So he said, all right. And then I hear my name in the background. He says, congratulations. You're a Detroit lion house. And the next thing he said, which was kind of interesting, he goes, so it's Tuesday night. We'll get you out either late tonight or tomorrow, early tomorrow morning. And I said, coach, I got to tell you something. I said, this is my fourth year in college. I got a final on Thursday, and if I don't take that final, I'm not graduating.

And I don't think my parents can be too happy about that. I said, so I really can't do it until Thursday. He's like, are you serious? I go, yeah, I'm serious. He goes, all right, we'll get you out Thursday afternoon. So it was kind of one of those things. It's the moment, you know, it's a great moment. It's a fantastic moment. But I'm sitting there going, I'm just messing myself up by not saying I'm coming out tonight, but I had to take that final in order to graduate, so.

Jack Hubbard: But there had to be a lot of respect on the other end of the phone to hear that you wanted to complete your studies, and I think that says a lot about you as a human being. And, you know, Monty Clark was a tough old guy, but I'm sure he respected that. Well, you know, it's interesting now we are in the age of social media and tv and watch the NFL draft and all that, and so there's all that glitz from that night, and then there's the rookie camp. but there's a lot of stuff in between. So you mentioned that you had the final. So you take the final and you end up going to Detroit. Take us through what happens, John, between the time you land in Detroit and when rookie camp starts, what happens during that time period?

John Witkowski: Yeah, so the first, the first couple of days you're out there, they take you through, you know, you go through all the. What they, what we would call Glitz and glamour. You meet, like, you know, Billy Sims and Gary Danielson and, you know, all of William gay, all, ah, the big, big names from Detroit back in those days. they put out a banquet and dinner. They put you on the field for a little while to go through the pictures. But rookie camp, that first couple of days, you get to know everybody there. Then rookie camp's probably two weeks later or so. You go to rookie camp, and at the end of that camp, that's when the veterans come in, so you get a feel for what's going on. but it's you know, it's a tense time, obviously, new people coming in, new guys coming in. You're beating all these people that you watch on tv for last few years. It's. 

Some of it can be intimidating. But you know what? It's just like you always do. You got to showcase. You got to make sure wherever you go, you know, one of my old coaches, my old bosses, says you have to make a difference. So you take all that you've. You've worked hard to get to this point. Now it's time to showcase. Now it's time to get out there and, and prove that you belong. And, so the first couple of days, you're just with the rookies and the signees that they take on after the draft, the free agent signees, and you go through kind of a, you know, a study system where you understand now more about what's going on when the veterans come in, you know, you're kind of put to the side. 

You try to get shuffled in there, but you put to the side, you got to earn your way in. and it, it is, you know, it's a different feel. You know, it's a different feel than what you were doing in, in college. Step up. Big step up. But that's, that's what makes it fun. You know, that's what makes it fun. So it's, it's one of those where it's your mindset, it's how you put yourself in that situation, what you see yourself doing. And, I was determined to make a difference and continue, to go down the path of trying to be a professional quarterback. So from there, you get another six weeks before training camp starts. That's the time where you really. You go there, you work out. 

Now I'm 22 years old. Didn't have one. Actually I was 21, turned 22. During the time between the draft and the training camp, I went out to Detroit, stayed at Rochester, University of Rochester in Michigan in a dorm room, just like I did in college. I had no car. I had nothing, so. But you went out and you worked out, and that was your job. You worked out, you studied, you went to the stadium. You did what you had to do to make sure you were going to be part of the team. And then training camp starts, and it's a totally different world back then than it is today. We were in pads twice a day, and it was grueling. It was really grueling, but wouldn't change. It wouldn't change a day of it. Enjoyed every second of it.

Jack Hubbard: You know what's really interesting, and a lot of people don't really think about this. You know, they're players. We see them on TV and you look at what the Bears are going through now you've got Caleb Williams and then you've got three other quarterbacks in camp. And what's really interesting is they're collegial because they're all in the quarterback room together. They all know the playbook and they're all trying to help each other. But on the other hand, they know at least a couple of them are not going to make the team. Talk about the dichotomy between teamwork and collaboration and competing for a job because you're the fifth round draft, your 6th round draft judge, you could get cut at any time. What was that like?

John Witkowski: You know, it was interesting because during training camp as a rookie, you know, you're always looked at as being, you know, the guy that nobody pays attention to. Right. Until you, you do something spectacular. Until you do something well. You know, I had two great mentors. Eric Hippel and Gary Danielson were great guys. But during training camp, I hardly talked. One, because they knew I was there as a young guy, maybe to take their job. And number two, they said, if we became friends with every quarterback that came through here, it's tough to see your friends leave and you don't want to get caught up in that. Not that it's an emotional thing because you're all guys and you're all doing what you need to do to get things to get yourself into that position. 

So when I made the team, I said to them, I will go and they became friends of mine. I said, why wouldn't you guys go have a beer with me or pay attention to me? During training camp, they said, well, people come and go and, you know, you make friends, but then you lose sight of them and you lose touch with them. And by the way, you were competing for a job. So it's, it's kind of like that. You know, it's a fine line, but certainly, I can understand it. And, you know, you try to do things on your own to make yourself feel good, but you gotta do it for the team. You got to be a leader for the team. And, you know, you try to follow suit into what people are doing, but you gotta make your own, gotta make your own way. You gotta make your own pathway to get there and use your own strengths. And that's kind of what it was. So it was interesting to hear them say, they didn't want to get close to you, didn't want to lose a friend, but you were also competing for a job. So we had that professional relationship is probably the best way I could put it.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, interesting. You talked about training camp and, the rules, as you mentioned, have changed significantly now where they do very little hitting in, training camp and the quarterbacks where the red jerseys and they're not allowed to be tackled or touched or anything like that. How does all that compare, John, to what was going on when you were in the NFL?

John Witkowski: Well, they still had, you know, no hits on the quarterback back then and certainly no hits on a guy like Billy Simms. You know, you start running back and things like that. But, you know, defensive guys are defensive guys. They're paid to hit people. So you'd always get whacked every once in a while and it was just out of frustration or just out of some fun. but a quick story is, you know, being a third or fourth string quarterback, later on in my last training camp, I was told to go over to do one on ones with the offensive defensive lineman and I was the quarterback, so I had to take drops, five step drops, seven step drops, three. And, you know, you're in the middle of the summer, but this is every play and you have twelve guys on both sides doing one on one. 

Well, one of them I won't name from the jets sack exchange came up and he was getting frustrated because a free agent was beating him three times in a row. So I took another job, came by and he whacked me across the head. I'm like, you know, I didn't deserve it, but, you know, he had to take it out on somebody since he was getting beat the whole time on with an offensive lineman. And it's a name you would know, Jack. It was a name you would know. But, yeah, it's just, I think today, in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, and people can yell and scream at me. I think hitting in practice makes your body warm up to the fact that you're getting hit. I think back then, you know, even the offensive line, even though they weren't going 100 miles an hour, they're probably going 70 or 80%, 60, 70. That still prepared them for what it is today. Same thing with receivers and lineback. I mean, you need to hit a little bit. And I know they do practices with other teams, but I just think there's something to that. And when you get into the first couple of weeks of the season, you can see that people are adjusting, and.

Jack Hubbard: I don't think people realize, John, and you certainly know it. There are 17 games now in the NFL, and four preseason games. The Bears play four preseason games, I think there's three. That's 20 games. That's really hard on your body back then. How many preseason games did you play and how often were you in the game? In the preseason games.

John Witkowski: So the preseason games, we played four games, and usually the first two games were for rookies, you know, free agents coming in. They would play the first teamers for maybe a quarter or a couple of series, but then they give the rest of the guys time because they had to see what they can do, on the field. So, my rookie year, I was, I think I got into this the second and first, second and third preseason game, and the fourth one was done. fortunate for me, you know, I did make the team that year as the number three quarterback. Between Hippel and Danielson, Eric Hippel got hurt, so I became the number two QB on the depth chart. 

So I was the one that was sending signals and next to the coach and working on the offense and doing all that. and then I got a chance to play towards the end of that year. So you look at it, look, you don't want to see anybody get hurt, but at the same time, you want to get an opportunity and you want to get an opportunity to play. So if they're playing bad, sometimes it's tough to put a rookie in when they're playing bad, but if they get hurt, there's no choice. So, I did have an opportunity to play my rookie year and, you know, sparingly. But, hey, still got an NFL field, right? Still got on the field.

Jack Hubbard: That's great. Take, take us back to the, to the cut day because they got to cut it down to 53 players. So in Columbia, you're sitting in your dorm room with your parents and people that really care about you, and they're really encouraging you, and now it's the end of training camp, and now all the final cuts are made. What was going through, did you know that you were going to make the team and what was going through your mind as those final cuts were made?

John Witkowski: No, I had no idea, Jack. I thought that, I didn't know what they were going to do. I had a good preseason. I thought I picked up the offense pretty well. You know, I was engaged, but at the same time, it was Labor Day weekend, you know, and it's like that that weekend before the season starts. So you've done with your last preseason game on a Friday maybe, or maybe even a Saturday. but then you're waiting around all day Sunday into Monday. I think Monday at five was the cut date, you know, and you sit there and you're going, what's going to. 

So you're on pins and needles. I mean, you're sitting there anxious to find out what's going on. And when I didn't get a call saying that I was cut at 05:00 I was assuming I made the team. And then, you know, you hear from others and sure enough, you know, I made the roster. So big day for me, huge day for me. as far as just my own personal feeling, obviously it made my parents proud, you know, my family proud, but, you know, that was, you put a lot of hard work in getting to that point and I was very fortunate to make it. and I look at that as being a big moment. You know, I have other stories when I got cut as the last guy cut in a few other training camps that, you know, are pretty crazy. But, yeah, every year at that time, I was always one of the last guys either to make the team or to be released.

Jack Hubbard: You had a chance to play. and if I remember, I want to say it was a Monday night football game. I might be wrong, but you had some very memorable games against the Chicago Bears. In fact, you may have even set some NFL records in that game, Jack.

John Witkowski: I'm glad you brought that up. Well, the Monday night game was against the Raiders. I played on the 15th game of the season against the Raiders. Gary Danielson got hurt. He actually had a turf toe and couldn't. And, we got the ball on our own 1 yd line. I heard my name called. I'm like, what? Coach? He goes, get in. I'm like, really? Okay. So my first NFL play, I was 99 yards away from a touchdown. And, I. But at the Monday night game, the silver dome was packed. It was a great experience. So I got to start the next week in the last game of the season against the Chicago Bears, 46 defense. 

The year before they won the Super Bowl and we were 212 and one. At that point, we weren't going anywhere. They were going to the playoffs and they were just going to have some fun with us. And our guys were, you know, we were beat up. Looking at, looking at just get on to go have Christmas with our families at home, you know, at least that's what everybody else thought in the huddle except for me. You know, my job was to make sure we could play a competitive game. And the whole week I was focused on it and I didn't even pay attention to the other players because this was my opportunity. But needless, to say, it didn't go as planned. And, on that last day of the 1984 season, I held an NFL record for about 20 years as the most sacked quarterback in a half. So people don't realize that, but that was, that was my NFL record. It wasn't most interceptions, it wasn't most fumbles, it wasn't nothing else that was negative. It was. Got sacked eight times in the first half.

Jack Hubbard: And you came out to play the second half.

John Witkowski: The second half they put Eric Hippel in. And I got to say the Bears didn't put their number ones in either. But it was just, it was one of those things where. And unfortunately, that's what Monty Clark got fired after that. I think if Monte was still there, I think I would have had an opportunity to compete the next year. I think him and the coaching staff saw something in me. But, you know, when you change coaches, everything's changed.

Jack Hubbard: And then you go to Houston. John, how did that happen?

John Witkowski: Well, during the season, you, if you're one of the people that are released last or even a quarterback, they bring you in, on Tuesday. So Monday, if, depending on what happens on Sunday, somebody gets hurt, they just want to see your talent. They want to do this. They bring in Monday afternoon, they work you out on Tuesday and they either send you home or assign you. So in 1986, I got a chance to go to Houston. And, on Tuesday, when I worked out for them, they were doing a run and shoot. Back then. On Tuesday, when I worked out for them, they, ah, asked me to stick around and, I was more than happy to. so I got signed by the Houston Oilers in 1986, was there in 86, and part of the strike season in 87. And then I went to the jets training camp in 88. went back to Detroit in 88, and then, finished up my career in the World League and Arena League.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, so talk about the World League of American Football. You played for the London Monarchs. In fact, I think you were the first starting quarterback in the league's history in 1991. What was that like?

John Witkowski: You know, that was an experience. That was, it was a lot of fun. my whole objective of doing that was to see if I can get back into the NFL and use that as kind of a stepping stone, things didn't work out there again for, I started the first game, I was going to split time with the other quarterback that we had because they picked him up in a supplementary draft, which was a total surprise. But the head coach and that quarterback had a history before. Saw the writing on the wall. But I started because I went through all the training camps. I did everything from day one. I was their first pick, you know, so I was looking forward to getting out on the field. But, in the first game we were winning. They took me out at halftime. 

We said we were going to split time. Second game he was going to start, didn't have a great first half, but the coach came up to me and said he's going to play. And I knew at that point that, you know, again, he got hurt during the year and I played a game, did well, but he came back, ended up winning the MVP of the league. So I can't argue with the coach's decision, but at the same time, I just feel that should have been my opportunity. So after that, I ended up going to Tim Marcum, one of the coaches in the world league, who was running the team for the Detroit drive in the arena league and he was talking to me about it. So he called me up and said, do you want to play? I'm like, look, if you're going to pay me to play, I'm there. So I love the game, love playing. And, that was my opportunity to kind of end my career by having some fun Schliester there.

Jack Hubbard: Oh, is that right?

John Witkowski: Yeah.

Jack Hubbard: Well, and think about that. You know, we're bankers, you were a banker and we'll talk about that. And it's this industry where you don't want to leave. You love what you do and all the hard work that you put in in high school and college got you to the NFL and you just want to stay because you love the game. But to your point, you love getting paid too. I'm curious about that. Then I want to kind of transition over into banking. But you worked from 84 until 92, let's say. I don't want to know the number. How does the pension system work? How many years? Because I think the average tenure of an NFL player is four years. How does the pension system work in the NFL?

John Witkowski: Benches work. When I played under that contract, if you were on the team for four games, for a roster, you got an accredited season. So you were, you know, four out of the 16. At that point you got, you know, one quarter of the season, if you were on the roster, you got an accredited season. So basically what they did is it was three years in four games. So in other words, wherever you had, you got four games that were accredited season. So it was “four years.” It's down to three now, I believe. maybe even two in some cases. But, yeah, so, I mean, after four years, you receive a pension and it goes by the number of years you're in the league. You know, there's a dollar amount that you get per month, per year. Per month. So in other words, let's just throw out a number. Say it's $200 a month per year. Right. So I played for four years, that's $800. I would get that every month, you know, from the time I reached 55 or 62 or whenever you wanted to pick it up.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, that's interesting. so one of the interesting things to me is a lot of football players, they leave the game, but they don't leave the game. They end up going back on the field. As a coach, I'm sure you had opportunities to do that. What was it that said to you, I'm walking away from the game and I'm going to go do something else?

John Witkowski: You know, Jack, I tried to do a couple things during my time when I was playing. I was trying to set up an opportunity for me to go on, even as a grad assistant to some places so I can go back later school, get my MBA, and move on to do something different. but it just never worked out. The timing didn't work out. I had an opportunity. I was going to intern at one of the tv stations in New York City, but I got picked up the next week. So you look at all the different opportunities and all the different things you had back then. and it just played out, right. I mean, I never got into coaching when I got out of football, had my first kid. And that's what makes you realize that, you know what? Having a family and being a part of the family and coaching those kids would be my future. So I needed to find a real job.

Jack Hubbard: Well, you did. And I want to talk about that real job because you've been an amazing asset to the financial services industry both in banking and now as a president of a trade association. But I want to ask you one more football question, because tomorrow night, the football season starts September 4. What's going through the mind of those two quarterbacks? Chiefs versus the Ravens, two world class quarterbacks. What's going through their mind? What are they doing to get finally prepared for what's going to happen tomorrow?

John Witkowski: Well, the good thing about both of those is they've been in the same system for a number of years, right. So they're very familiar with the system and their comfort, comfort level and going out there calling plays and seeing the defenses, that does make a difference. You know, if you're a first or second year guy, you're going to have tons of butterflies and they'll both have them. I mean, they're both going to be nervous. They're both going to have tons of butterflies. But it's, you know, it's fun. You know, when you're at that point, you have a comfort level. 

You're looking forward to that. You're looking forward to walking through the tunnel, getting on the field and just having fun. Are you going to make mistakes? Sure. Did you get all the practice time you needed? No, but neither did the other team, and it just, at game time, ratchets up quite a bit. You move it up a notch or two from what you're used to, and there's bodies flying all over the place and you have to make split decisions, split second decisions. It's a lot of fun, a lot of, I don't want to say anxiety, but it's anxiousness. You know, you want to do it and you want to get out there and you're competitive and you want to play. 

So for both of those guys, they're going to let their athletic ability take over and they're going to be just fine. They're going to wow a lot of people. Are they going to make mistakes? You know, hopefully not, but they will. And are, people in the field going to make mistakes? Yeah, but again, you look at the receivers, they're looking to get that ball. You're looking at running backs, they're looking to find that hole. Offensive line, they're looking to do the pancakes for the defensive. I mean, it's just, this is what you came to training camp for and get prepared for, and now you're ready to go. And it's, a lot of hype, it's a lot of energy, a lot of adrenaline.

Jack Hubbard: So now you make this transition, you say, all right, this is it. I got to go do something else for my family or what have you. You chose banking. We've never talked about this before. How did you get into banking?

John Witkowski: Well, it's actually through football, you know, and Columbia. So when I went to Columbia, I would go back and talk to different administrators or whatever and try to help when I was playing football, and I'd go back to the coaching staff, well, an opportunity came along. One of my good friends, actually, my receiver in college, was leaving his position as a director of the national alumni program for the university. So when I was done playing arena football, that position came up. And to be kind of a spokesperson for the university and going out and visit with clubs and around the country, it was a good, I think, position for me, but also a good position

John Witkowski: for the university as far as development and raising some money and things along those lines. So, he left in January. I took it over in January, and started going around the country, and about eight months into it, nine months into it, met one of the alumni, and he said, is this something that you want to do for the rest of your life? And I said, no, I'm just trying to figure out how to transition into the real world. And, he said, you got to call a guy by the name of Jim Rogers. And I said, okay. Jim was a major college football coach at Syracuse, East Carolina, Florida, under Mike Shanahan, eastern Illinois. He had a great background as an offensive line coach, and, just a super, just a great guy, but a coach. And he coached at Columbia, too, before I got there. 

So he had very good connections with some of the Columbia alumni. I called up Jim Rogers, and I said, mister Rogers, you don't know who I am in his first comment. I know who you are, kind of in that offensive lineman voice, right. And I said, oh, okay. John Cerrill told me you were going to call. I said, okay. I said, I just want to know how you made the transition, being a major college football coach into banking. Now. He was in banking with, he was a senior vp at this point, just five or six, seven years into his banking career. But he made it. He went there and made a difference and brought himself up and was good at what he did. So he said, why don't you come up this weekend? 

He goes, I want to talk to you. He drove around the state of Rhode island for probably five or 6 hours, met him at 10:00, came back at 03:00, stopped in, had a little lunch, but sat in the back. And he was asking me, Kathy was with me, and just drove around the state of Rhode island for 5 hours, and he was just asking me questions. We were talking about family, talking about people we knew. It wasn't even an interview, and I was just looking to see how we made the transition stop. He goes, all right, meet me over at the restaurant tonight, 07:00 we'll have some dinner. So we go through dinner and we're just talking, and we're having, you know, a casual conference. 

First time I met them, we had a great day. And at the end of dinner, I go, Jim, I gotta ask you a question. I said, I came here to find how you made the transition from college football into the business world. And he says, you want to know the answer? I said, well, yeah, love to know. He says, wherever you go, you have to make a difference. And I went, that's it? He goes, that's it. I said, okay. So drove back to Long Island, New York City, wrote him a nice note because back then there was no email. So I penned out a nice note to him. M two months later, he called me up, I think, I have a job for you. It's in banking. And, he goes, you got to come up and interview. I went through the interview process. He says, you're going to meet the vice chairman of the bank. I said, who's that? I didn't know who the vice chairman of the bank was, what it meant or anything. And he said, he's the number two guy in charge. I said, okay. So he goes, you'll be up there for twelve minutes. Two minutes talking about business, ten minutes talking about, you know, his son playing ball over brown. And he goes, you'll be down here in no time. I said, okay. Hour and 15 minutes later, I came down. He goes, what did you do? I went, I didn't do anything. We just had a conversation. He goes, he wants to hire you. I go, for what job? He goes, don't worry about it. We got it. It was a marketing job at the bank. That's how I got into banking. And I just made my way through. And, he was a mentor. He was certainly a coach, and he helped me get to where I am today.

Jack Hubbard: What bank was it?

John Witkowski: It was fleet. Fleet bank.

Jack Hubbard: And that's where John and I methadore.

John Witkowski: That's where we met.

Jack Hubbard: M John, you had some great experiences at the bank, but I gotta have you tell me about the bams. You know, this is how I got to know John, because I did a lot of sales training for his bams. What were the bams? It was an amazing program.

John Witkowski: It was business account managers. I had an opportunity to create a business within the fleet, you know. and basically back then, it was a number of small business customers that the branches couldn't handle. That small business, lenders couldn't handle, when I say couldn't handle, meaning they just had too many on their portfolio. So we built in this group that covered that gap and basically did everything through the phone and through the computer and we would have a list of customers. And we took, I think, 1200 names in the beginning of the fleet. And all we did, I said, all right, we had five or six people that I brought in, one from the credit department, one from customer service, one from the branches, one from underwriting. And I just said, okay, anybody who has an issue with the branch, we give it to this person. Everybody who has an issue with this. And our first call to these customers were like, listen, I'm from fleet, we're the account management group. I'm one of the business account managers, but I'd like to know what we can do to help you or what we haven't done to help you up to this point. And they're like, I never got a call from the fleet about this. I said, well, we want to help. 

We want to see what we can do to help you. And they came from everything. I need to change my address on my, you know, on my bank statement to, you know, I need this loan processed or I need to find somebody who will help me with a loan to cash management. So we had a number of different opportunities to follow up on and that's how I built the team. I'm like, okay, so here we go. At the end of the day, you get all the branches, you get all the customer service, you get all the credit questions you get. And we built it out. And over the course of probably 90 days, we had a good business plan that we were putting in place and we ended up being bigger than many of the community banks. I had a two and a half billion dollar loan portfolio. I had 4 billion in deposits in the portfolio that we ran there at the bank. And we had hundreds, thousands of customers that we would work with. And the customers always said to us, you know what, we're never going to hear from you again. I said, you will hear from this group again in the next 30 days. You call them back and find out what's going on. And we ended up being very profitable, not a lot of cost. And we ended up growing up setting up a group down in Jersey and then up in Buffalo and one in Boston. So we expanded it across the footprint. And then when Bank of America came in and took us over, they put another gentleman over the top of me. I had an opportunity to move on to be president of a bank in western New York.

Jack Hubbard: You are, and I've known you for a long time. You're a very modest man. What you accomplished with the bams is phenomenal. And let me be really specific. I remember one day I was there, up in Waltham, and a guy named Ira is on the phone, and I'm sitting there listening to him. And I didn't know John was around. So he hangs up the phone, and John taps me on the shoulder. He says, do you mind if I take this one? I said, sure. What. What, he meant by taking this one is, can I coach Ira? And the coaching session, I wish we'd had a recorder. You were socratic, you were behavioral, you were reinforcing. And not that you needed to be for Ira because he was one of your top performers. But, John, that's the day I really learned what a great coach you became. You did a great job with that Bams program.

John Witkowski: Yeah. Again, it was one of the most successful. It was a successful program. And, I hated to see it go. We built that thing from scratch, and we did a lot of work. Irae was a big part of that. And, John Wasek and Ira Cohen, both of them very, very proud of. Very proud of that group, too. And, I think, they're still doing it.

Jack Hubbard: I think they are. And you should also be very proud of where you are now, because in 2014, I think it was 2014, you became president of independent bankers of New York state Ibanias. And ive done a lot of work for John. Talk about your role as CEO of that community, bank Trade association.

John Witkowski: I was part of a community bank for seven years, and got a chance to see the difference between what a regional bank is and what a big bank is versus what a community bank is. And, there are significant differences. So I went to the Wyoming county bank. M. I was out in the community all the time. We combined to become a five star bank. We had four separate entities, and became five star banks. and I didn't get the top job, so. Of the combined entity. So I was looking around and I. To be honest with you, I didn't know anything about the independent bankers association. I was so focused on the day to day work of being at the bank. So when this opportunity came along, I looked into it. I said, this is perfect. I know exactly what the issues are legislatively, education, networking events, things like that. 

In my opinion, it's a great way to bring people together with common interest, but also be able to share ideas, but also know what they're up against from compliance and regulatory and legislative. And I never thought I was a political person and still claim not to be, but certainly, I understand the ways of what's going on and how difficult it is for people to understand what happens to community banks when you bring down certain pieces of legislation or certain regulatory burdens on these smaller banks. And, my job is to really stick up for them and be out there and be a voice of their concerns. So far, after ten years, I think we've accomplished a lot. We've built a good, strong group of community banks. And unfortunately, you see banks being bought or acquired over the last few years. And certainly it's part of the business. But I don't think there's anything better than having a bank in your community that cares about the people in that community and can do amazing things for those folks in that community. You need somebody who cares about what's going on in your area and in your community and your businesses. So that's part of my job.

Jack Hubbard: So I got to ask you about the future of community banking. you're in this hands and feet every day. You're talking to bank CEO's, and you're hearing a lot of challenges and a lot of opportunities. There have been a lot of articles written about the death of community banking. What's your take on that? What's the future of community banking?

John Witkowski: Look, I think when you think about community banks, there's a lot of suburban and rural areas in this country that need to have a community bank. This is not to discredit anybody in the industry, but big banks aren't going to go into some of these rural areas. credit unions are trying to get into more affluent areas now, and they don't necessarily get into them. So in my opinion, community banks are here for the long. There might be fewer of them, but I don't think you can ever get away. There might be community banks that work together to build a bigger part in rural America. It's a shame because that old feeling of having security within your, within your community, of knowing that that bank on the corner has been there for 50 years or 150 years or 180 years, that is important. Walked through town yesterday. 

There's a bank building that was a big concrete brick building on the corner. And obviously the name that's etched into the top is not the same name anymore. But now it's not even a bank. You know, it's something totally different, but those buildings were the mainstay. They were the ones that were the pillar of the communities. I still think that the community banks have a great opportunity to be successful, but at the same time they're running up against a lot of compliance, a lot of regulatory burden, a lot of legislative burden. We're not going to fix everything in a day. And I just think that if they let community banks do what they've always done by supporting and being out there in the community, they're not going away anywhere. 

We've had a lot of opportunities where, a lot of stories about people who are worried about the interest rate environment, banks who are worried about liquidity and capital, they get it. Every bank is, but at the same time, we go through these cycles, it'll hopefully end sometime soon or get better sometime soon. but the biggest, I think the biggest hurdle we have is seeing a lot of these credit unions take over banks. And I think that is one of the serious issues here because they're tax free, cash on hand, and it's tough for a bank who's teetering on making a profit or not, not to listen to those, you know, those opportunities. So I truly think, and I know ICBA and we are, we're fighting it tooth and nail because it's just not fair to take those, you know, a, ah, tax paying entity into the community and bring it over again. I didn't want to get in political, I didn't want to get into this, but it's, it's truly an issue. And again at the national level, ICBA is really taking a close look at it and pushing hard to have a different view of this. And we are doing it at the state level.

Jack Hubbard: And these are issues that you tackle with your members every day. John, whether it's your annual convention that I've had the amazing privilege of speaking at, or individual seminars, around, or board meetings or executive management sessions, etcetera, you do a phenomenal job. If somebody wants to reach out to a community bank in New York that may not be a member as yet, talk about how they reach you, how do they get a hold of you?

John Witkowski: Yeah, I mean, all of my information is on our website at ibanees. www.ibanese.net. you'll see that my number, the office number and my personal cell phone is there. Also my email. So that's the easiest way to get a hold of this organization. We welcome any questions, any opportunities to talk to businesses that we work with. And also, that banks work with any banks that are willing to talk to us. I try to get out there and meet a lot of banks, but again, it's a tough time. There's not a lot of, and we're nothing. The way I look at this business is that if it's not going to be for you, it's not going to work for the bank or the business that we work with, then certainly not going to look for the association. I'm not looking to make, you know, put out a lot of money upfront or people ask people to put a lot of money up front. I'm really looking for relationships. I'm looking for what's going to help the banks, what's going to help the companies that we're talking to. We call them associate members or preferred partners. Look, those are the things that need, those are the groups that need to be in front of the bank. So I try to do as much as I can to set them up with banks. And I gotta be honest with you, the banks in New York have been wonderful as far as working with them and being, having access to these companies and being accessible to these companies.

Jack Hubbard: Well, John, I couldn't think of a better way to kick off the new season of Jack Rants with Modern Bankers than having you as a guest. It's been such a privilege and a great privilege to know you and be your friend. Thanks John.

John Witkowski: Jack, be well and I appreciate our, over our three decades of friendship and I look forward to having more fun with you. I know we have something coming up in January of 25 that I'm looking forward to working with you on.

Jack Hubbard: Thanks for listening to this first episode of the fall 2024 season of Jack Ransomware with modern bankers with John Witkowski. Next week I will bring back my very first guest on this program back in August of 2023. James Robert lay James Robert is CEO of the Digital Growth Institute and a two time best selling author. Next week we dive into his newest book, Banking and Change. Need some really practical ideas and resources on sales and banking? Well, you can find them @themodernbanker.com. subscribe to this podcast. It's been downloaded more than 50,000 times. follow us on YouTube and join our free public library too. Now that library has replays of all my shows, all the Jack rants with Brin, more than 40 ebooks and lots more practical help. As always, a big thanks to our amazing sponsors, Vertical IQ and RelPro. We're rolling into the fall. So make today and every day a great client day.