Season 3, Episode 3: Ken Martin

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Jack Hubbard: Okay.

 

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Jack Hubbard: I've trained about 81,000 bankers, and I can truly say that my guest today is the number one sales leader I've ever met in my life. It's Ken Martin. Ken, welcome to the show.

 

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Ken Martin: Thank you, Jack. Excited about being here today.

 

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Ken Martin: You know, and we're gonna talk about some of the things that Ken does to help reinforce his message.

 

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Jack Hubbard: by helping the team understand how important they are. Ken's actually in Saratoga today,

 

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Jack Hubbard: And he'll tell you about a race that was named after him. And that's just part of the Ken Martin story, but let's get to that. I'm curious, Ken, I'm, you know, I'm an accidental banker. I didn't choose to get into this industry 52 years ago. I'm glad I did.

 

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Jack Hubbard: But let's talk about your career. First of all, let's talk about what got you interested in banking, how did you get in, and then talk a little bit about some of the banks you've worked at.

 

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Ken Martin: Yeah, yo.

 

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Ken Martin: out of college, I was a political science economics double major, so I interviewed with a

 

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Ken Martin: bunch of companies on campus, Jack. I knew back then that I liked managing people. You know, I was a captain in a number of the sports, and just enjoyed that portion of it. So I had a pretty wide swath of what I was interested in, and ultimately it came down to a couple of insurance opportunities and a couple of banking opportunities.

 

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Ken Martin: And I like the banking opportunity to start as a management trainee in a $500 million community bank, based in Rhode Island. So, I think I made that… made that decision.

 

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Ken Martin: A good starting in the banking side, loved kind of managing people, loved the action of a branch manager.

 

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Ken Martin: very quickly learned that I love the business side. Back then, the branch manager was super active in both business and personal. Some banks do a little of that today, and said, you know what, I'm gonna get into this full-time in terms of, the business side.

 

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Ken Martin: And ironically, at the time, one of the banks that had very much had interest in me out of college, they had too much of a yield, and I didn't get selected by them, because people had accepted.

 

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Ken Martin: Five years later, they're knocking on my door, saying, hey, we've got an opportunity that we think you'd be great at. And that was Fleet Bank, the early, early days. And that really started a career, with Fleet, for Fleet Bank of America for 18, 20 years.

 

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Ken Martin: For me, and that's where I really had a lot of my initial growth, and really focused on the business side.

 

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Ken Martin: I stayed in retail a little bit, went to the business side, and said, man, I really like this interaction with business clients. It's complicated, it's relationship-based, I like being out of the branch, making calls, and spent a fair amount of time on that, really in small business.

 

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Ken Martin: For quite a bit, really developed an expertise. Did some middle market, ran some middle market, geographies, as well for, for quite a while. And then really up through fleet, had various.

 

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Ken Martin: increasing responsibilities, and I think one of the biggest opportunities I got was really from my mentor, a guy named Noam DeLuca, who you know.

 

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Ken Martin: Norm was putting together a… I was running small business geographies in Rhode Island, Mass, Rhode Island, Mass, Connecticut.

 

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Ken Martin: And he said, Ken, look, if you really want to get the brass ring and you want to run a business someday, I think you need to really take some risk-reward. And he said, I've always dreamed of this business development Navy SEAL team. That's where some of the Top Gun stuff comes from. He said, I want you to build out 5 teams across the fleet.

 

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Ken Martin: Footprint, and you're gonna hunt companies from 10 to 100 million dollars.

 

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Ken Martin: not really been done in banking. Banking doesn't do well at prospecting, and so we attacked it, Norm and I, and I was successful at it. And it really kind of really took my career off in terms of an additional skill set. And then, Bank of America came in.

 

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Ken Martin: Bought Fleet, and I got an opportunity for first real big job running the Northeast for Bank of America. So I had Maine down to Fairfax, Virginia, out to, Syracuse, and really, that was a big business. A half a billion dollar revenue business, $10 billion in loan, deposits, $3 million in

 

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Ken Martin: Loans, and really was an opportunity for me to lead a lodge team in a lodge geography.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? And that worked really well, loved the company, and I got an opportunity to run the whole piece of the pie. Back at Bank of America, I was running one portion of the country, the Northeast. Citizens Bank came and said, man, you've got a good reputation, we'd like you to run all the small business. So you'd have 400 salespeople, you'd have the credit shop, you've had marketing, you've had…

 

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Ken Martin: incentives, and I think that really was when I felt like I had arrived in the business, because that was my goal. My goal was, could I get to the point of owning the entire business, the entire franchise? You know, Citizens had 11 states at the time, and it was really a chance for a guy who grew up as a sales leader

 

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Ken Martin: to then add, which Norma taught me, you gotta have the strategy piece plus the sales. And when you combine those two.

 

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Ken Martin: now you really got an opportunity, and I did that for several years. We moved our… our, …

 

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Ken Martin: goalpost a bit from small business. I did a run at what we call commercial enterprise banking. It was $5 to $25 million, and spent a, you know, a fair amount of time doing that, and that went well. I really enjoyed it. And then I had an opportunity to

 

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Ken Martin: to work a bit at Santander, which I did. I was running the business banking space and middle market in New England, so I had a little bit of both, which was really good. I had a, a small stint at a community bank where I thought I had a real opportunity to be

 

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Ken Martin: the CEO that was kind of in place, and then the bank got bought. And then that kind of takes me where I am today, and at that point in my career, I said, you know.

 

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Ken Martin: I've been in traditional banking for a long time. I've managed relationship managers, right? And I say to people when I'm giving career advice, you need a new pop in your step sometimes. You need something a little different. And a gentleman I had worked with at both Fleet Bank of America Citizens.

 

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Ken Martin: called and said, hey, I could use a hand here at CIT in the leasing business, something I had never done before. It was a monoline, which was new and different to me, and I said to myself, you know what? This might be a good way for me to learn something new, continue to pop in my step, and impact more people.

 

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Ken Martin: And, that's what I did, and I did a… I had the initial small ticket space for a while exclusively, then my boss asked me to run all of the verticals. So today, I'm the national sales leader for both the small ticket stop, and construction, and technology, and golf and turf, and…

 

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Ken Martin: specialty vehicle, and we started up, healthcare, ag, and, things are going well from that perspective. But that's kind of the career piece for me, Jack, where I started and where I got to.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Well, let's go back to Fleet. You know, I talk to people, and they say to me, tell me something that I should know that I may not have heard before. And I say.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Let me tell you a story about Ken Martin. So when Bob St. Meyer and I were in the mix to do some work at Fleet, some training work, back in 1997. So there was Brian O'Connor and Ralph Solari and guys that have helped us get into the business.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And they said, yeah, we're good with you guys, but you gotta pass the Ken Martin test. I said, what the hell is a Ken Martin test? He said, if Ken Martin says grace over you, we're good. And they said, he's tough.

 

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Jack Hubbard: So, I'm down in the basement at Waltham, Massachusetts, at the lunchroom, and I meet Ken.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And Ken is… Ken is a very direct man, a good man, and Ken says, hey, Jack, nice to meet you, tell me something I don't know. And I said, Ken, here's one of the things you… we really need to think about in our industry, and that's flexible consistency.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And Ken's eyes light up, he says, I love that, tell me more about that. And I thought, holy crap, I don't know what I'm talking about, I just made this stuff up. And I… so we went through, and we talked about it, and it started a great relationship with us and Ken, and us and Fleet, which I believe was…

 

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Jack Hubbard: one of America's absolute great banks. But now, Ken, fast forward to your CIT days.

 

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Jack Hubbard: you're doing great work at CIT, and now First Citizens comes along and says, well, we'd like to buy CIT. So they do, and now you're at First Citizens Bank, again, one of America's absolutely fabulous banks.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Talk about the transition, Ken. How did that transition work from CIT to First Citizens?

 

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Ken Martin: Yeah, I think, you know, I had worked for large banks, publicly traded banks, and in those banks, as most folks know, right, you get… I always got a scorecard every day, but in those banks, right, the drive for quarterly earnings, the drive for results, many times is shorter term versus longer term.

 

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Ken Martin: And I think one of the things that is a big benefit for First Citizens, it is the largest family-led bank. Frank Holding is the CEO, his sister Hope runs all of Wealth and Consumer, and his brother-in-law, Peter, runs the commercial.

 

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Ken Martin: So they have a unique advantage, which I think plays for customers

 

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Ken Martin: in place for employees. They do play a longer-term game. They are willing to make investments, in businesses and have what I call patient capital. And I think that is a… that is a really important piece that you don't see in every bank.

 

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Ken Martin: But the bank has grown fast, and they continue to look at consolidating. They recently purchased, right, Silicon Valley about 18 months ago. So now the job is, how do you melt together 3

 

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Ken Martin: three banks, one which was a small regional-type bank for citizens, and you got two really commercialized banks in CIT and SVB, right? And as they blend those three together, if we can continue to maintain that longer-term view, continue to maintain

 

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Ken Martin: many of the pieces that Frank Holding has put in place, I think the future is very, very, very bright. But it is a different… if you've worked at the other places, and like I have, and some other folks.

 

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Ken Martin: It does take a little getting used to, Jack. You're used to thinking that results, you drive them hard anyway. Most people really want to do well, but having a little longer-term view, to me, is the best of both worlds, if in fact that can happen.

 

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Jack Hubbard: No doubt, Ken, and you know, it really does pair you with who I consider to be one of the best sales leaders I've ever met. And, you know, so several great people at First Citizens, and the sales leader, I mean, is Jeff Ward, who I'm sure you've met.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And the holding family has done a great job with First Citizens, and it's a great success story, there's no doubt about it. So let's… I get a lot of questions from young bankers on this show.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And I'll say… they'll say things like, have some guests on and talk about their history as they came up through the ranks.

 

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Jack Hubbard: One of the things that young sales leaders are looking to are people like you and I, who have had a lot of experience. Go back to your early days as a sales leader, Ken. Talk about some things that you thought, gee, that really worked well, or boy, I'm not gonna try that again.

 

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Ken Martin: Yeah, great question, Jack. I think one of the things that I've seen over and over that I've had to coach

 

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Ken Martin: is when you're young and you're moving into the sales management role, you think everybody's profile's gotta look like yours, right? I'm a loud, kind of aggressive, right, high-energy, get-after-it guy.

 

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Ken Martin: You know, I thought that's what everybody on my team needed to look like. Guess what? They don't. They need to share the same objective, they need to share the same integrity, they need to share the same skill set. But stylistically, it really doesn't matter, and I think a lot of people

 

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Ken Martin: make that mistake. The second mistake, I just went coaching someone recently on it, is they need to understand, no matter how good you are, you cannot win alone.

 

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Ken Martin: When you get moved into that job, it is all about your team.

 

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Ken Martin: when they were an individual, they could produce $20 million. Now they think they're the team leader, and they still think they gotta be the rainmaker, right? One of my new lines that I've developed is from that great, great show, Yellowstone, John Dutton, right? I don't know how many of your viewers watch it, but I watched it, right?

 

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Ken Martin: And it's a line I love, and he was talking to one of his boys, who actually is a cattleman, loves working

 

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Ken Martin: on the ranch. And he's explaining to his son, look, right, if you're gonna be the key guy.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? You gotta run the ranch, you don't work the ranch. And this is where sales leaders, at a couple of levels, make big mistakes, right? They're trying to do too much for their team. You gotta run the ranch, direct the traffic, and coach.

 

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Ken Martin: When you spend too much time working the ranch, you're not strategic, you're not coaching, and by the way, you're not helping your team, Jack. So I think those are some early mistakes that I see. Also, I find that

 

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Ken Martin: When they hire new talent.

 

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Ken Martin: They don't factor in enough what I call speed to revenue time. They want to throw them right into the fire.

 

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Ken Martin: I want to get them to produce results. By the way, I haven't learned the culture.

 

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Ken Martin: don't really understand the systems, so I'm now more in the camp of those first 2 or 3 months, I'm telling my new sales leaders, look.

 

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Ken Martin: I don't want any pressure on that guy or gal. It's about… you love this one, Jack, it's about behaviors, Matt. Are their behaviors the right ones? Are they learning the culture? And have a little patience as a new sales leader. And the last comment I would say is.

 

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Ken Martin: When you got a team of 5 or 8, particularly 5 or 6,

 

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Ken Martin: You know, you cannot let anybody hold you hostage. You know, young sales leaders begin to believe, well, God, if I… I'm not gonna coach Jack Hubbard, he does 60% of my value. Well, not coaching Ken Martin, he does 40% of my volume. What am I gonna do if they don't get it done?

 

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Ken Martin: And I'm here to tell you, right, you gotta set the example, the culture's gotta be right, the behavior's gotta be right.

 

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Ken Martin: And if you work on my team, one of my interview questions is, how do you… how are you coached today? And if they tell me my boss just leave me alone, I put up numbers, I said, I'm not so sure, I'm for you. Because my view of the world is, if you did 40 million last year, what can I do coaching you to do 42, 45, or 50?

 

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Ken Martin: Not every bank, not every sales leader operates that, but that's part of the Ken Martin recipe that I've used. But those are 3 or 4 items if I'm a young banker, sales leader, that I would really think hard about as they're talking to the people on their team. Hopefully that makes sense to you, Jeff.

 

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Jack Hubbard: It does, Ken, and I want to follow up on something you talked about around producer-manager. I get questions like this all the time. Should I… should my sales managers be producers as well as sales managers? You've seen a lot of these models during your career, Ken. What's your take on that?

 

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Ken Martin: The answer is unequivocally no, Jack, because they are betwixt and between about do they do this deal for themselves and get paid that way, or for their team. I think you've got to build enough scale

 

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Ken Martin: Right? I don't believe people should be managing people 1, 2, 3 people. Part of that's Fleet Bank of America way, right? The gearing ratio needs to be 5, 7, 8. My own personal view, you get above 8, it's sales math, it's not sales coaching, right, Mr. Hubbard? Right? You can't spend the time. I do believe… we had a new concept here that I like.

 

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Ken Martin: that was here, that I'd inherited, really, from a former boutique shop, CIT bought, Direct Capital, and that is a captain role.

 

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Ken Martin: And a captain role isn't a full manager. We pay them a little more in the base, which gets their attention, but we're asking them to help out that sales leader.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? Be somebody on that team that's more than just a little bit of an informal leader. So that's probably where I'd go, Jack. I'd be much more inclined to do that, because I think you put people in a no-win position. And I don't know how you can coach when you're worried about doing personal deals, Jack. No doubt about it.

 

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Jack Hubbard: No doubt.

 

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Ken Martin: One other comment, Jack, if you don't mind, on this coaching. I'm an obsessed coach guy, as you know.

 

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Ken Martin: I picked something up about a month ago from a book that I love, Twin Thieves. It's spectacular.

 

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Ken Martin: And really, I did it yesterday, and one of the retail guys wanted me to deliver a message for about a half hour on top tips. And I said to the managers on the call, I want you to ask yourself this, what is your unique advantage?

 

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Ken Martin: As the coach and manager.

 

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Ken Martin: I paused and asked them again, what is your unique advance? Because think about it, Jack.

 

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Ken Martin: If you're a sales leader, Right? You gotta have something special why people want to work for you.

 

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Ken Martin: What is it about Jack Harbard or Ken Martin, right? You're better at removing obstacles, you're better at skill building, you're better at helping me rein prospect, are you better at running interference with the underwriting shop? Are you better at just negotiation? Are you better…

 

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Ken Martin: You gotta have some schtick, something that's real, it's not BS, but it's all about helping your team win, Jack.

 

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Ken Martin: You can't help them win, man. That's your job. You got one job. Get them better, get them better at their game, and help them win.

 

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Ken Martin: Make sense to you, Jack?

 

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Jack Hubbard: Absolutely, Ken, and I think one of the biggest deficits in our industry, and we really suck at it, and that's behavioral coaching.

 

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Jack Hubbard: good at deal coaching. Managers know how to deal coach. But behavioral coaching, observation, listening to them when they're on the phone, that's all the stuff that you taught me to teach people.

 

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Ken Martin: The other piece of that, Jack, and it's funny, I just had a young guy down in the lobby, you know, an hour ago, and he was… he says, you know what, Ken, man?

 

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Ken Martin: the feedback you provide is so valuable, and it's not BS feedback, and that's part of the challenge. You know, sales leaders need to know it's not about being liked, it's about being respected.

 

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Ken Martin: It's about helping your team, and that respect comes from being honest to say, hey, Jack, man, the other thing I fall in love with as part of the Top Gun stuff is the debrief.

 

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Ken Martin: I mean, you have it, as part of the St. Meyer and Hubbard kind of, commandments, right? And people don't do it enough. What did we do well? What didn't we do well? Geez, Ken. And I ask now on calls.

 

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Ken Martin: You have me on the call, what did I do? Did I not deliver it? But openness to that feedback's the only way you can get better.

 

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Jack Hubbard: No doubt. So I had lunch with Bob St. Meyer recently, and I said, I am going to interview Ken Martin.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And I said, Bob, if you could think of one word that would, that would kind of articulate Ken Martin, what is it? And he and I both, I said, let's write it down. We both wrote the word accountability down.

 

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Jack Hubbard: I think, and we talk a lot about accountability in our industry, Ken. The problem is.

 

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Jack Hubbard: We tend not to hold people accountable. We say the words.

 

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Jack Hubbard: What does accountability mean to you? What's a… what's… we talked about upside potential. What's a downside risk for me if I'm not coaching as a manager, if I'm not producing as a producer? What's your take on that?

 

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Ken Martin: You know, Jack, I interviewed a woman a couple years ago, and during the interview, I said, this lady's for us. I could tell, culturally.

 

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Ken Martin: she was the real… Ken Martin Lang, she was the real deal, right? And so, as she came on board, I said to her, Melissa, here's what I need you to do. You do your part, which is the accountability, and then you hold me accountable. Hold me accountable.

 

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Ken Martin: And she's been with us 3 years. We had a tough year last year. She got the highest bonus in the business, because she's that good.

 

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Ken Martin: And how did I give her the highest bonus? Because I had the courage to take the money away from the people who didn't perform, Jack.

 

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Ken Martin: Ken Martin line, I don't spread peanut butter, right? It's the accountability, but you gotta reinforce it. So when someone does kill it.

 

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Ken Martin: You gotta pay them up. When they don't kill it, you gotta pay them down, but be the coach if you believe in them that says, hey, Jack, you had an off year, but the coach believes in you, man. Let's get after it and go. The other thing, people, there's enough data today, Jack, to just have those discussions.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? I don't have to… I shouldn't have to remind you you're at 70% of playing when you see it, but I gotta talk to you about it. I'll never forget…

 

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Ken Martin: As a young manager, I took over a new group, and I'm meeting with this guy, I was in Worcester, Massachusetts, years ago.

 

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Ken Martin: And I said… and I knew his numbers were 65-70%.

 

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Ken Martin: I'll leave his name out, obviously, but I said, hey, one of my patented questions as a coach is, so, Jack, how do you think you're doing? I already know how you're doing, I want to know what you think you're doing. Guy says, yeah, I think I'm doing pretty well.

 

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Ken Martin: Note to self, he's at 70%, he thinks he's doing pretty well. Houston, we got a problem, right? I'm gonna have to work through this. So I stopped going nicely, professionally. Geez, let's look at your loan number, Jack. 60%. Let's look… so I took him through 3, pause, and says, geez, Jack.

 

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Ken Martin: Like, what I'm used to, like, 65% is not pretty good.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? But you gotta have the courage to have the discussion. And then I think the real key as the lead… the coach, is

 

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Ken Martin: Where's the action plan, man? What are we doing to improve it, right? And as I talk to my leaders, I do monthly business reviews, right? It's part of the routine, the recipe for success.

 

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Ken Martin: And I say to them, I want the headwinds and the mitigants, and what are you doing about it? And I said, if you're working for Ken.

 

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Ken Martin: and you put 10 on the left-hand side of problems that you have, and you have 3 on the right-hand side about what you're doing, that's a short meeting. It doesn't go well with Kmart.

 

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Ken Martin: Because you've got to have action steps, and part of that is the coach. The coach needs to help Jack Hubbin say, Jack, your call activity at the top of the funnel ain't right. But you've got to understand, Jack, your conversion's aren't right. What's happening? Why is it falling off, Jack? Where's the issue? So you and I know you have to have the diagnostic tools.

 

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Ken Martin: And I don't buy the BS that we don't have the technology. Guess what? All of us used Excel spreadsheets, I used napkins, I used whatever it was, but I had… I knew, when I was that young banker in my first job with 8 salespeople, my assistant printed out for me every day what the pipeline was, Jack.

 

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Ken Martin: By me. And that was the accountability. I've kept that. Now it's all automated, and should be in a bank. It spends the money, but don't buy any of those excuses about technology, and you gotta have the conversations. Because you only win with talent, Jack, and your job is to get the talent better. Does that… does that answer what you were looking for, Jack?

 

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Jack Hubbard: and Target, and you talked about talent, which is the next place I want to go. You mentioned Melissa. You hired her 3 years ago. One of the questions I get from bankers a lot is, where do I find these people? Where do I find top talent? So, where are you going today, Ken, to find top talent?

 

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Ken Martin: I think it's a combination of stuff, right? You and I are big LinkedIn believers. There are people who are linked out, don't believe in it. Some people will never need it, depending on what they're in their career, right? You know, in the equipment finance business, we get a lot of stuff that, says,

 

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Ken Martin: top 40 under 40 talent. Why aren't you reading that? One of my favorite things, and you'll laugh when I say this, right? Centers of influence to me, which is some of the biggest BS, people say, oh, Jack Hubbett, CPA, he's my center of influence. Ken's question, really?

 

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Ken Martin: Oh, so how many lunches do you have with Jack 10? How many deals have you done? None. He's not a son of a influence, he's a business acquaintance. Well, what I've done, right, what I've done a few times is say, you lost that deal, who do we lose it to? Son of a bee, we lost it to Bob St. Meier, where does he work? TD Bank.

 

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Ken Martin: Dial them up, I want to talk to them, I want to interview them. Let's go, right? That's part of it. The CPAs. I was starting a dental business, I'll forget it, with Citizens. I went to the main CPA guy who owned the dental

 

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Ken Martin: It's business. Right? Larry.

 

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Ken Martin: Who's the best in the business? Gave me the name. I was dogmatic and maniacal, Jack, in my pursuit of that individual, right? But they're out there, you gotta work at it. You know, what I tell my team, and if you're a senior person listening or whatever, or even a frontline.

 

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Ken Martin: I want to know who the 5 names you have in your desk. That's part of Ken's check-in.

 

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Ken Martin: Who are the next 5 you hire? Do you go to the industry? Look, some of these industry trade shows, and you and I, some of these are just resume builders, and people are out there, but you will meet some people, you will network.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? You gotta get a reputation in the business. So, there's not one source, it's LinkedIn, it's referrals, it's, you know, trade shows, it's asking the CPA. By the way, I ask vendors in our business.

 

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Ken Martin: Hey, you're a big cat dealer. Who's the best? I got this gal at Wells, I got this guy at U.S. Bank, I got this guy at DLL.

 

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Ken Martin: I tell my guys, dial it up, let's go, man. And you want the talent that's not looking for jobs, Jack. I don't want the leftovers, and people may not like this comment. What I've seen today, which is unbelievable if you're a salesperson, you're a C-plus player, you're getting paid like you're A-.

 

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Ken Martin: Because there is not a depth of talent. So to me, we've got to grow at your own, I also believe in growing it, but the real, true, best companies have combination outside and inside talent. You need a fresh set of eyes, you need somebody new in it. So hopefully that gives some people some places to go, Jack.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, it's so true, Ken. I get a lot of questions from sales managers who are now sales managers, and they don't have a portfolio, and they'll say, I miss prospecting.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And I said, well, you should be prospecting every day. Talent. You should be looking for talent every single day. And unfortunately, Ken, we don't tend to do that until somebody leaves, and then we gotta find somebody that can fog a mirror. We don't have a pipeline, Ken.

 

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Ken Martin: You got it. And the other thing I tell my guys, recruiting, I love recruiting, I've had some of the best guys in the world. It's Jack Cubbard's job, the sales leader, to do the recruiting, not the recruiting.

 

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Ken Martin: I took over a team one time, leave all the names, the banks out.

 

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Ken Martin: first question I ask in a first 90 days, I get all the sales leaders together.

 

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Ken Martin: So, Jack, tell me who the top 5 guys are in this market.

 

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Ken Martin: did not have an answer. Worked in the market 20 years.

 

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Ken Martin: Do you hear what I just told you?

 

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Ken Martin: Did… that's all I needed to know. What else do I need to know? You're in the market 20 years. You can't tell me who you're losing deals to. You ain't at the Chamber of Commerce scene, you ain't at these business meetings. So, to me.

 

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Ken Martin: What to do is easy. Doing it is hard. You hit it on the head. Gotta have that Rolodex, you gotta be doing it… it's playing offense versus defense, Jack. It's playing offense versus defense. The other thing I've always said in my career, right, when talent's available, man, you gotta jump all over it.

 

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Ken Martin: And you gotta go to your boss and say, I don't care if I don't have a wreck, go steal it from somebody else. I got Jack Hubbard available. He's been on my list. We just had one here. First citizens we're working through, right? Someone that's been on our list. I made the trip, the leader made the trip.

 

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Ken Martin: Pitching deep, didn't get him last year. Now we got a shot. Boom. We need a direct, let's just take it from somebody else. Say to the boss, we need one, this guy's available now, he's not gonna be available tomorrow. And you get to this time of the year.

 

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Ken Martin: I'm not a believer, I don't want to buy him out. Top talent needs to be bought out.

 

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Ken Martin: You're gonna wait… you're gonna wait till their bonuses come in February, March? You know, a lot can happen between August 28th

 

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Ken Martin: in March. The boss could fall in love with him. They get win and thrive. This happened to me a couple times. Not in that season. All of a sudden, not being a smart hack, they know Ken's in the market. Boom.

 

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Ken Martin: Talent, just lay 20 grand on him. Lay 15 grand on him, right? And all of a sudden, even the guy that may be interested, he's not moving. But you gotta… it's a full-time job, but it's gotta be part of your job every week, Jack. Every week.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Well, then… then the next question, Ken, is, what am I looking for? So, you and your leaders are out in the marketplace looking for talent. What are some of the traits

 

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Jack Hubbard: Or behaviors, or competencies that you're looking for, so that you know, when you bring somebody on board, that they have a real shot at being successful.

 

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Ken Martin: You know, it's… I've been thinking about this for the last 15 years, and I did… I think I put it on a LinkedIn post, but look, I try to look at it from the vendor-customer.

 

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Ken Martin: who do they want to do business with, right? And I just used this slide yesterday, I happen to have it over there today.

 

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Ken Martin: First of all, you've seen this with me. I put up a pharmacist picture with a big red X through it. I love pharmacists.

 

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Ken Martin: You know, I know friends, family, pharmacists. Why do I do that? They are order takers, Jack. Do you understand? You hand them

 

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Ken Martin: The prescription, they fill the orders.

 

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Ken Martin: reactionary.

 

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Ken Martin: You need to be proactive. I tell people I have an insatiable appetite for initiative. You need to get after it. Pick up the phone, make the call, prospect, call your clients, right? One of my famous lines over the years is, look, you're frozen solid emails.

 

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Ken Martin: Phones ringing off the hook, you're dizzy at home, you don't know what to do, Jack, I make it very clear.

 

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Ken Martin: Call a customer, call a prospect, call a vendor. Good things happen when you call. Proactive, critical.

 

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Ken Martin: People want to do business with who? Confident people, not cocky people.

 

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Ken Martin: Ken's line is, when's the last time you bought anything from a depressed guy? Right? It just… you just don't do it.

 

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Ken Martin: You don't do it, you don't see the confidence, you don't believe this guy can deliver for you. Certainty of executions, something you need to have. If you're depressed, or you're not exuding confidence, not cockiness.

 

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Ken Martin: Nobody likes the cocky guy or gal.

 

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Ken Martin: Those days are, are long gone. My other line, you've heard me deliver this, you gotta deliver value, guys. The days of saying, I'm playing golf with Jack, I'm having drinks with Jack, I know Jack for 20… yeah, you're gonna continue to have drinks with Jack, and Jack's gonna do business with Ken, because you ain't brought him anything new in 20 years.

 

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Ken Martin: I'm adding value to Jack, I'm helping Jack win. So Ken's line is, add value or die. Some people think, oh, geez, Ken, that's demonstrative, that's… that's a little bit over the top.

 

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Ken Martin: Well, there's no price for second place in banking, Jack. How good do you feel when a guy says, hey, loved your pitch, but I'm staying with my bank? You do that in your own business, right? Come on. You gotta add value. Really, really good. And then I'm an obsessed pre-call, on-call, after-call guy. Do your homework.

 

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Ken Martin: I don't want to hear that the dog eats your homework like in high school, man, right? My latest thing… I'm interviewing Jack Hubbard today, I start the whole interview this way. Jack, tell me something about me. What? Yeah. Tell me something about Ken Martin.

 

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Ken Martin: And if they're stumbling, that interview don't go well. Last one went well. Geez, Ken, I know that you worked at a lot of big banks. I looked at your LinkedIn profile.

 

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Ken Martin: Duh, I would hope you looked at my LinkedIn profile. I hope you did a little homework, no matter how senior or junior, right? Do your homework, Jack. You and I know that. Did you check the industry website? Did you look at the… did you look at our favorite, right? Vertical IQ and all. Did you get ready to run?

 

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Ken Martin: If you didn't, don't show up.

 

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Ken Martin: I think you gotta be passionate. I'm a guy who loves the game, you don't need to love the game like I do. It doesn't need to be wearing on your sleeve like mine, but people want to do business with people that care.

 

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Ken Martin: I hate indifference, right? I don't care what it is, right? My Chase has always been the best sales force in America. You've heard me say that. I don't care if I'm selling frozen foods, vegetables, meats, or financial services.

 

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Ken Martin: Have a passion, chase it, and get after it, right? And if you're indifferent, it should tell you, what are you doing in the job? People can sense it, you know that, Jack. Who do you do business when you think about it, right? Then my other thing is, you gotta believe in your own value. If you don't believe it, how the heck's the customer gonna believe it? How's the vendor gonna believe it?

 

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Ken Martin: I work for First Citizens, and I don't believe and can't articulate the value of being with a large, 12th largest bank, most stable bank in the country, plenty of liquidity, largest family-led. Think about calling a large vendor who's had 100 years of generation in their family, and I sit across and say, by the way.

 

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Ken Martin: We're 100 years, too, with the holding. I…

 

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Ken Martin: Have that value, believe in it. It's gotta be real. People… people see right through all those guys, the phonies, Jack, not the authentic guys, right? They want to do business with that, and I think most importantly, do what's right for the client. That may sound so basic.

 

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Ken Martin: Right? But don't be a mercenary, that's another line, these mercenaries, that all they care about is making as much money as they can, jamming fee and product that people don't need or want. Right? When you come at it, what is good for Hubbit Inc?

 

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Ken Martin: Man, the world's your oyster. It opens up. You win a lot more. One of my last lines is, and I like this one, I did not get it, but your work ethic must exceed your expectations. Hear what I just said, Jack?

 

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Ken Martin: Right? You want the breast ring, and you're working 30 hours.

 

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Ken Martin: You know, you want to be a legend sales guy, and, like, you do no homework. Like, you're gonna match these things. I used a number the other day, I forgot who I got it from, might have been you, somebody gave me this number, right? One guy's sales gal works 44 hours, the other sales gal works 40.

 

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Ken Martin: That sales guy at 44's got one month more of selling in the year. You know, how good you gotta be, Jack, to make that up? How efficient you gotta be?

 

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Ken Martin: Right? So it can't be craziness work ethic.

 

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Ken Martin: But work ethic, to me, is there. And then I, you know, the last piece I use, I talk about a top gun mentality. The best of the best, the elite, top 1% man. You gotta ask with a sense of urgency, not panic.

 

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Ken Martin: Urgency, right? And then if you can't build and work the matrix and partnerships, stay at home. You're always working with underwriting. You're working with support groups.

 

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Ken Martin: The best salespeople, everybody's working for them, and they don't even know it.

 

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Ken Martin: Because they cheerlead, they send notes. Hey, Jack, thanks for the help. Hey, Jack, they send it up to their boss. Jack was unbelievable today. It's exhausting. I've worked at Matrix Management my entire life. I think I'm good at it. It is exhausting, and you better be up for the energy. But that's the world we're in today. Hopefully that gives folks a few tips there, Jack, on things that I think can help.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Ken Martin didn't write this book.

 

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Jack Hubbard: But it's one he ought to be reading, if you haven't. This is Matt Dixon, he was my first guest this year on Jack Grants with Modern Bankers.

 

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Jack Hubbard: The activator advantage. In here is what Ken just talked about. He could have written this book. Proactivity, no nonsense, go get him. That's the kind of mentality you have to have to be successful.

 

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Jack Hubbard: But Ken's mentioned Top Gun.

 

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Jack Hubbard: I've had the experience of speaking 2 or 3 times for Ken at a Top Gun rally.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Ken, there are a lot of, I'll call them motivational moments in a banker's life.

 

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Jack Hubbard: You created something, around Top Gun, and now you've kind of expanded it with the Saratoga thing, which I want to talk about. But let's go back to Top Gun. Talk about how this all came about, and what is Top Gun?

 

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Ken Martin: Yeah, no, for me, you know, I really loved the movie, the original movie when it came out.

 

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Ken Martin: And then I referenced that,

 

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Ken Martin: that first big opportunity that Norm DeLuca had given me regarding building this Navy SEAL team.

 

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Ken Martin: And so, I'm sitting at home one day thinking about.

 

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Ken Martin: It was really one of my early rallies, and I'm thinking about, how do I get this team going, man? And I just used this clip the other day. I said, how do I get them going? How do I get them focused on what we're doing? And I took the opening scene.

 

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Ken Martin: with Viper, when all the new recruits come in and he's addressing them.

 

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Ken Martin: And he says to them, you know, we're the best of the best, the elite, the top 1%. My favorite line is right after that. We're gonna make you better.

 

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Ken Martin: We're gonna make you better. You may think you're that good, you're that cocky.

 

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Ken Martin: But understand, we're gonna make you better. So I said to myself, that's the clip, man. That's how I'm gonna galvanize this team, and we're gonna go.

 

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Ken Martin: And I'm a big reward and recognition guy, obsessed with it. Have been my whole career. Just a footnote on that for some sales leaders, maybe listening today, or senior players.

 

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Ken Martin: Don't worry if it's the bank money or your own money, just spend it, man. It's reward and recognition. You know, you want to build culture, you want to make sure you get a team that's got fellowship and all of that, it's just fantastic, right? It's gotta be that way.

 

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Ken Martin: So, I said, what would really be cool?

 

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Ken Martin: I said, let me check into these authentic Top Gun jackets.

 

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Ken Martin: 700 apiece. Authentic. So I gotta do it.

 

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Ken Martin: Gotta do it. And that's when I begun the Top Gun Award at the year-end rally to kick off the next year recognition event.

 

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Ken Martin: We give them out. I still give them out today. Still give out the jackets. They are a symbol of absolute excellence at the highest level of the game, right? You think about these pilots and who they are.

 

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Ken Martin: People love them. I've talked about, and I'm probably gonna put together a Top Gun Hall of Fame event, where I bring together the folks that have worn these jackets, have earned these jackets. And that's really… it becomes a little bit of a cult piece.

 

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Ken Martin: It's part of my brand, it's part of what I've worked at, but when you think about the precision, the execution, the chase to be the best of the best, right? It's like this best sales force in America. For me, it's aspirational, you never get there.

 

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Ken Martin: you gotta keep going. But that's really where the Top Gun came from, and people embrace it. People have liked it. And it's… what I've found is both genders like it, that they chase it, there's jackets for both, and you really can go get it.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And now you've expanded this, Ken, and you've got an award program and a recognition program that you just finished, and you had a horse race named after you. Talk about your program now.

 

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Ken Martin: Yeah, no, what we did about three and a half years ago is I put in place, with support of my boss, I said, look, I'm a big recognition guy, we need an annual event.

 

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Ken Martin: Which we have, and then we need a 6-month event to keep the momentum going.

 

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Ken Martin: So, a couple years ago, I used to come up to Saratoga and do some client recognition, and it went well. So I said to my senior guy who does this stuff, I said, Scotty, let's put something together at Saratoga. And I said, you know what, I want to call it? The winner's circle.

 

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Ken Martin: It's all about winning. It's, you know, it's not winning at all costs, it's winning the right way, rooting for the guy next to you, but there's nothing better than the adrenaline rush of winning.

 

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Ken Martin: And if you think about it, there's nothing better than me watching a horse race, and seeing that, getting that juice, getting that juice going. So I have a lot of sayings, as you know, Jack, quite a few sayings. I used a few of them today.

 

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Ken Martin: One of them that I got from my mentor that I use is

 

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Ken Martin: Performance is the ticket to the dance. The ticket to the dance is performance. And what I've said, what I love about that, particularly in the world that we're living in, there are no biases to that, Jack.

 

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Ken Martin: There's no gender bias, there's no race bias, there's no bias. Produce the results with the right behaviors, you get paid, and you get rewarded. If you're in sales.

 

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Ken Martin: It's pretty simple and clean. So my guys surprised me, yesterday, and they had a race put in there that says, Ken Martin's Ticket to the Dance. And it was… we got a picture in the winner's circle, it was fantastic. It was fantastic.

 

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Jack Hubbard: That's just awesome. Well, Ken, you've been very gracious with your time, but I gotta ask you, because I ask every banker on the show about AI. It is ubiquitous, it's around us. Talk about AI, Ken, and how you have implemented that with your teams.

 

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Ken Martin: I think that, you know, you and I were talking before the interview, it's how can AI help populate, get information that, manually, people used to have to search for and get. That's one way.

 

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Ken Martin: I think also is we think about just handling normal administrative tasks that people have had to do before. Okay, great example.

 

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Ken Martin: putting together a performance appraisal, trying to cull together whatever it happens to be, or a weekly report, or a monthly report as you're trying to gather your thoughts and put it all together. I think that's…

 

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Ken Martin: That's the way that I think you use it. You know, you and I have talked about this great new tool you guys have, right? The AI Navigator, that I think is gonna really help bankers. It takes care of something I was looking to build manually, and I think will be fantastic, but I think you gotta be careful using it. You still need to make sure that you're…

 

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Ken Martin: checking it, watching it, leveraging it appropriately, and candidly, in a banking environment, making sure you've got the right compliance, oversight, and legal oversight on anything you do. Really, really important, Jack, those last two pieces.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Outstanding. Well, Ken, you've been very gracious with your time, and one of the neat things about

 

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Jack Hubbard: doing this program is I get to talk to people who I've kept relationships with over these many years, and I really mean this when I say Ken has been a catalyst for my career. I watch him, I listen. When I've spoken at his Top Gun events.

 

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Jack Hubbard: I don't just come in and do my speech and go home. I stay for the whole event, because it is absolutely phenomenal. So, Ken, I'm sure that now bankers are gonna say, geez, I gotta talk to that Ken Martin. How do people get ahold of you if they want to reach out to you?

 

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Ken Martin: The best way to get me, Jack, is I'm a… I'm a big… I've become a big text guy, and I'll just give you my cell phone, believe it or not. It's 401…

 

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Ken Martin: 529?

 

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Ken Martin: 3919-401-529-3919. I just find that is direct kind of access. The email stuff, some kind can work, but I tend to find that that's a good way. You can get me on LinkedIn. I'm active. Excuse me, that might even be a better way. I'm on LinkedIn all the time.

 

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Ken Martin: I get regular messages that I respond to. That's another thing, if you're a salesperson, can you respond? I mean, really. Imagine waiting a day for a response, Jack, and waiting 2 days. Does that tell you how important you are? I mean, you know, I've got a 24-hour rule.

 

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Ken Martin: Probably sooner, if you're looking for me. I get back really quick. That's probably the best way, Jack. Best way.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Ken, you've been, you've been terrific with your time, and you've had a great career. Congratulations on that, and for all you do in banking, and all you will continue to do in our industry. Thanks, Ken.

 

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Ken Martin: Thank you, Jack. This was a great… hopefully people got one or two things that can help them this afternoon or tomorrow. Much appreciated, Jack. Have a great day.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Okay, Ken, we're done.

 

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Jack Hubbard: That was just awesome, Ken. That was just terrific.

 

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Jack Hubbard: That was….

 

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Ken Martin: Thank you, Chuck.

 

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Jack Hubbard: You, you, and, and certainly we'll edit this part out, but… you know, can…

 

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Jack Hubbard: you've got so much more to give. I, you know, Bob and I talk about this all the time, and I say, well, when are you going to retire? And he says, when are you going to retire? I'll retire the day after you retire. I said, I'd love to do this until I'm 80, because if I'm in good health, my cancer continues to be in good shape.

 

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Jack Hubbard: I… it's not hard work.

 

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Jack Hubbard: But I'll tell you one thing we need to do, Ken, and we need to really think about this.

 

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Jack Hubbard: One way that I may be able to help you down the road, if you want.

 

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Jack Hubbard: We should put together, you and I, a program where we go out and do a couple of speeches for banking associations.

 

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Ken Martin: Yeah.

 

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Ken Martin: No, I'd love that, Jack, I'd love that. I think that'd be good. That's really good.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah. Really good.

 

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Jack Hubbard: So, this will be on September 24th, and you'll get a notification from our team ahead of it with all kinds of links. You're welcome to have it, you're welcome to market it in any way you want, etc, etc.

 

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Jack Hubbard: And Ken, really, if there's any way I can ever help you, I'm here.

 

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Ken Martin: Thank you, Jack. Much appreciated, buddy. Have a great day.

 

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Jack Hubbard: Alright, you too. Thanks, Ken. Good to see you.