Episode 65: Dr. Jeff Doolittle

Jack Hubbard  00:01

I've had the privilege of being in and around banking for more than 50 years. Lots of changes during that time. We've gone from Ledger's to laptops, typewriters to technology. One thing, however, remains the same. Banking is a people business. And I'll be talking with those people that make banking great here on Jack Rants With Modern bankers. 

Welcome to Jack Rants With Modern Bankers brought to you by RelPro, and Vertical IQ. Each week I feature top voices in financial services from bankers and consultants, to best selling authors and many more. The goal of this program is simple, to provide insights, success practices and to bring new ideas to the table that you can use to maximize your results in 2024. 

Leadership. Millions of books and billions of words have been written on this subject. Now how can you get your head around all these key aspects of this very important topic? Well, today's guest cracks the code. He is Dr. Jeff Doolittle. Jeff has helped business owners and global 50 executives achieve both success and significance. He earned a BS and an MBA from Olivet Nazarene University here in Illinois. He also received a doctorate in strategic leadership from Regent University. 

Jeff is a regular speaker, a phenomenal coach and a consultant at his firm organizational talent consulting located in Grand Rapids, Michigan. His first book Life Changing leadership habits takes a practical look at 10 proven principles that will elevate your people, your profits and your purpose. What a great conversation about leadership with Dr. Doolittle. Yep. Dr. Doolittle on Jack Rants with Modern Bankers. Here we go. 

Well, as I mentioned, as is true in so many situations, I met Jeff through a banker, Shana Krasinski, who is up in the Rockford, Illinois area in Illinois. And Shawna has done some work with Jeff and I looked at his writings. And he's written this, this amazing book, which we're going to talk about. And so Jeff, great to have you with us today. Appreciate your time.

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  02:27

Thank you, Jack. And I have been looking forward to this conversation, given your background and experiences. So it should be fun. Good.

Jack Hubbard  02:37

Well, you've got it, you've got a very background, Olivet, Nazarene, you do a lot of work with you here, Illinois, and you have a company called organizational talent consulting. Let's start there, talk a little bit about what you do, who you help and how you help. Sure.

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  02:52

So most leaders I find today are really struggling to try to get more out of life and work. And their organizations are challenged with talent, retention, attracting the right people, engaging their people. And really, you know, how do you get the best and brightest really committed within your workplace and leaders in organizations, what I've seen have fallen into this trap, where they have developed what I call accidental bad habits, they didn't set out to do these things. But over time, I've kind of drifted into a belief that this urgent need for results is the most pressing issue. And what I find it rarely is, and so I founded organizational talent consulting about five years ago, and with the whole goal of how do I help busy leaders, and teams create organizations where life changing leadership habits can actually grow and that they can achieve greater profit, they can elevate their people, and they can live in line with their purpose.

Jack Hubbard  03:54

Outstanding. Well, this is a labor of love. Having written a book myself, I know that this isn't a game changer for you. And it's no doubt a proud moment to be able to fold the book. I see a few on your back shelf there. And we've mentioned that it's going quite well to talk about the book, but I'd love to know everybody has a different reason for writing a book. What was your inspiration? 

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  04:21

Well, it's a couple just in full transparency. I just recently finished up my doctorate in strategic leadership. And as part of my dissertation, I wanted to, I didn't want it to sit on a shelf. I had my master's in business administration. And my thesis for my master's I know is in some library somewhere deep in a file that no one ever reads or uses. And I wanted it to have greater purpose and impact. I was spending four years of my life going through school and wanting to really just not let that be self something that I just take in but something of how I can give Back to leaders. And I know leaders are really busy right now. And so you know, that's kind of the premise. The second piece of it is I'm a scientist by training. And I believe that I have a hypothesis that leadership habits are life changing. They're there, they can really change the world and today's world is divided. 

Trust in the workplace has been on the decline. And there's several red flags that the workplace is in crisis, they're, you know, three and 10 employees are currently engaged in their work. Five and 10 employees are only doing the minimum to get by. I don't know, if you've heard about it, they're calling it quiet, quitting. People are just just checking in to do the job. And that's it. And presented with this reality. It really sent me down the side of exploring that and being a scientist and a kind of a, what I call an organizational naturalist. I study organizations, and I wanted to understand what are the leadership habits that are really influencing this reality? You know, why is this happening and what's going on, and through a series of interviews, and research through my doctorate work, I really explored what are the worst habits in my office here, if you could come back and bring it over here, I have on my wall, created a mind map of over 70 different habits, the bad habits that are common within the workplace today. And I went through a process of affinity, sizing that down and trying to really get to the core of it, and identified these proven principles, what I wanted to flip it and say, you know, if, let's just not focus on what's wrong, but then what could be the the habits that are proven that would lead to correcting these issues within the workplace. And that's what really was the driver behind it. 

I wanted to shed some light into a topic that is really filled with a lot of isI smoke and mirrors, people with good intentions, trying to do the right thing, but have an idea that they're trying to sell or push. And I wanted to say, Well, what does the evidence say about this? What are the proven practices that leaders can use? Again, working within corporate America for over 25 years, leaders don't have time to waste energy and something that's not going to work? And so how can we really help get this in front of them? And that led to this book about, you know, how do we make these? How can people make these big changes in their life that they can achieve success in work and life and also significance and, and not feel like, they're they have to choose? It's one or the other? But how can I do this as a part of who I am? And how can I make that impact on my people, that drives that business profit that elevates the purpose and mission of the organization, and elevates the people within the workplace as well all all through what they're doing. And that's what got me down to this book.

Jack Hubbard  08:17

And it's, it really is outstanding. It's a great book. And I look as you know, I read a book a week, try to read a book a week, and I love reading sales books. But this was a game changer. For me. I like the 10 habits, and we'll talk about those. You mentioned. You mentioned the challenge in the workplace and quiet quitting and all of the lack of engagement. And I want to ask you not I'm gonna ask you a question at some point about remote work, and how that's that's affected this whole process. But you talked about strategic leadership. And I've read a lot of leadership books, one of my favorites. I don't know if you've read it. It's called Lincoln on leadership. It's an outstanding book. So I've seen a lot of different definitions over the years about leadership, talk about what your definition is, but you added a twist to it, and I'd love to explore that too. You talked about strategic leadership. So what is leadership and how is strategic leadership different from leadership?

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  09:18

Yeah, sure. Well, keywords that are important to me are perseverance and deliberate being deliberateness, you know, being deliberate in what it is that you do. And I think that's some of the strategic aspects. But you're right, leadership is one of those. Warren Bennis, actually, one of the fathers of leadership going back many many years, said no topic has been more researched and less understood and processed than leadership. And we all have different definitions and then you look at different leaders. I like to say, you know, Mother, Teresa Gandhi or Winston Churchill, who's a better leader, and then you know, say all these different contextual issues that play into leadership. And so I defined leadership in a way that helps cut through some of that and really pins it down. So that I say, leadership is and this rests on the shoulders of a lot of other leaders and thought leaders within the space of leadership, but it's the turn of vision into reality. 

Okay, so take a vision, and how do you bring it into the workplace, or an organization in your life and make it a reality? And then it's, I add into this, that it's also a selfless influence of worthy performance. So there's a selfless piece of it. I believe that's true leadership, and it's a worthy performance. It's not just influencing any reality, which can bring up some of those controversial people that they throw out, oh, is this person a leader or not? Well, it wasn't a worthy performance, was it something that benefited the world as well. And then at least didn't do any more harm, right? And then to also bring out the best and followers, that the best leaders and lead true leadership is where you bring out the best and those that follow you as well. So you take that and then layer it in with this, this idea of deliberateness, that it's not something that you just drift into. But it's with intentionality. And with focus and purpose is where I get to that concept of leading and leadership, strategic leadership.

Jack Hubbard  11:26

I love that I love the idea of selflessness. And I think of athletic teams. If you look at, you know, the New England Patriots, for example, they didn't have a great year this year at football, but in 2023, and football, but you look at Bill Belichick. This is not about him. This week, He's the face of it. The fact of the franchise, good or bad, but it's not about him. It's always been about his team. You think about people like Joe Maddon, who led the cubs to the World Series wasn't about Joe, not sure Joe has an ego. So there's bouncing, but they always turned it back to their players and always turned it back to the culture of the organization. And then there's other coaches that we could mention that while they would tell you that it's about the team, it's really more about them, they shine a light on them. So I love selflessness. And we'll dive into this a little bit more. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on is because I have a lot of guests that focus on banking, and you don't. And so I get a different perspective on this. You work with a lot of different kinds of industries. And I'm curious if there's any link or if you found any, any connection between a certain industry and better leadership? I'm curious about that. 

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  12:51

Yeah. So, I'm not sure if this is a setup question or banking, is this? Is this the right answer? You know, I, here's how I'll answer this, you know, I have not I, in my experience. So my background, and you're right, working with, from startups to Fortune 50 organizations, and a lot of different a lot of different industries that I have not identified a pattern of this industry is the one specific industry where you can find the best leaders what I would say, and there's a lot of evidence around this is that the best leaders inhabit the best companies, regardless of the industry, and that the best leaders I found are those self aware, leaders that have the strengths. And they know their strengths, and they're not just hidden. And they also don't have those blind spots around their opportunities. They're aware of those. That's why I think I can best answer that.

Jack Hubbard  13:49

Yeah, it's a great answer. And as you talk about in the book earlier, you talk about trust being an A key component of organizational effectiveness. And you also say, and I'll read it because it's important, fundamental to the leader-follower relationship. I want to, I want to ask you about trust in sales in sales and sales leadership. But I want to also, have you asked to talk about this whole idea of remoteness and how that's affected trust. So a lot to unpack there. But trust is kind of a central part of the question. 

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  14:29

Yeah, trust is a great topic, because it's important to organizations, from an individual and a performance and an outcome perspective. If you're wanting to improve the results of your organization, you should be thinking about the trust in the organization. And there's, the reality is it's on a decline. I started off with less than 30. Adelman studies trust and is so great. They put out a Trust Barometer, if you're not aware of it, and they, they, they've been studying it for numbers of years, globally. 32,000 Some types of surveys, this is in a small survey organization. And they found that less than 30% of people are willing to work, live near, or help someone that they disagree with on something that matters to them. And so we're in a very divisive kind of world right now. 

Trust is a very important topic. Within sales, it's extremely important for being effective. And what we know is that the best relationships are trust based relationships. And there's some great research out there on that, and a leader's credibility, competence and ethical behavior really are the foundational elements, I would say, of trust in the workplace. And they're damaged by this lack of transparency or credibility of information that can be shared within the sales process or within an organization. So and I would say two, there's an inner game and an outer game of leadership. And this touches on it a little bit when we start talking about selfless leadership. But the idea in the relationship and trust, there's an inner game and outer game, you're who you are, humility actually is a known kind of divider of the trust equation. It actually if you if you're not humble, you don't approach the relationship from a state of humility of willing to listen and not thinking that I know everything, if you come in, say, God, don't I have a lot to learn, that increases some of the other attributes that are critical of trust as well. 

So when we think about the credibility being one, transparency, being another, those things really drive this trust based relationship and being a trusted adviser. And there's a great book out there actually called the trusted advisor by Meister. And it's another one that he unpacks and comes up with an equation equation that you can actually take and apply using these variables to look at each of your relationships and really study them and understand what attributes do you need to focus on to drive in enhance your trust within that that specific relationship, which element is the one, I'd recommend that being another area, and I get into that in the book and talk about it, but it's, some great, great work on that, I think with the, the whole thing with the virtual aspect in the hybrid world that we live in is just that it's taken away some of them, I think the crutches that we've had of, you know, you've been a leaders have been able to get away from the been able to get by with the fact of using the easiest relationships with those face to face where we're sitting right across from each other having a conversation. 

But now all of a sudden, you put distance and time and screens in front of us, it's harder to connect and engage with that individual and you can't, you have to really work on your skills. And you have to look at how you intentionality, again around how you show up within a virtual world as well. A lot of the same constructs are the same I get asked, you know, is do leaders need to change do they need to be different? The proven principles around leadership are consistent, it's not a change. It's just the delivery methodology. And you can be effective in a virtual world. And you can do these things in a virtual context. And I've studied that as well. How these are necessary relationships that are in today's world, and they can be effective. In reality, face to face is still the best form of communication. So therefore, it makes it the easiest to and what we know from science is that there's a difference between a relationship with an individual that you're having a screen, and then being actually physically in their presence. There is something about the physical presence that makes a difference.

Jack Hubbard  19:00

Well, it's so huge. And my good friend, Charles Green, Charlie wrote, co authored with Dave Meister, Oh, yeah. Advisor, and Charlie's a good friend. And then he went on to write trust based selling which, which you own also talked about. And the trust equation is for anybody that really wants to understand trust, it's a very, very simple equation. The trusted advisor has that in and if you follow Charlie green at the trusted advisor, associates, you kill there's a lot of good information about that there as well. I also say that when I started a company 20 years ago, 24 years ago now with my good friend, Bob St. Meyer, and so the back to him at the end of 2022. One of the things we both talked about is we're going to be a virtual organization. We worked and we hired people that He knew which helped. But Bob and I lived right across the street from a number. And it was really easy. 

We'd walk prostrate, and Dawn, but you had to be on the screen. And on a conference call before screens were even available, you had to listen really carefully. And then on a screen, you had to look at people's body language and really listen to their words and how they said them. And there's a tremendous component of emotional intelligence around leadership that a lot of people really lack. If I'm having a bad day, and I'm usually an upbeat person, you can kind of tell, and I'm going to stop the meeting, I'm saying, Hey, Jack, you something's going on here. Let's before we move on to this important topic, let's talk about you. And I don't think a lot of leaders really understand how to do that. In a virtual world as well. 

It's easier to see them face to face. You can see him slouching or their attitude isn't good around the watercooler. I don't know if they have those anymore. But it's a little tougher in a virtual kind of situation. I'm going to talk about why, you know, Simon Sinek wrote this great book, Why and the five, I can't remember the exact title of it. But you get the concept. And I'm sure you've read the book, people come to their jobs for different reasons. What are you seeing? So it could be gain or profit, power and control, self preservation, security, achievement or recognition? Several? What are you seeing in terms of leadership, whereby a leader can create an environment for every employee so that when they come to their job, their leader is helping them perform well and being fulfilled on their job, because I'm not sure that motivational speakers do a good good for them. But if I hear a motivational speaker, and I get a flat tire in the parking lot after the speech is over, a lot of what that speaker said is gone. But the environment that a manager and a leader create can really help sustain the process. What are you seeing people do around that?

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Dr. Jeff Doolittle  22:31

Sure, yeah. I'll start with again, from a science perspective, looking at this, but what I would say I'm seeing leaders do is create the best leaders by creating intrinsic motivation in their employees. And it sounds like well, okay, that's a site, a very scientific piece. There's a very practical element of how you do that, though. But there's self determination theory out there that Daniel Pink made popular, and his book drive looks at autonomy, mastery, and purpose. So autonomy, do leaders really create environments where good performance can be achieved from personal decisions? Leaders? Are they involving employees in decisions that impact them? Are they out there talking with them? Are they so when we're creating strategy? Is it just done in the boardroom? Or is it done in the on the shop floor and how you listen to an individual I you know, you can you can engage a shop floor employee into a strategic conversation, but not in the way that you you wouldn't achieve a bring in a vice president, you can just how you walk around when you're walking around? 

Do you listen to your employees? Do you talk to them? When you get to know them, you're not going to bring them into, you know, a half day off site planning meeting, but you can still bring them into that meeting by listening to them and engaging them in conversations about their work. So autonomy mastery, or they are there's their competence, the ability to be competent, and to to really excel within their discipline of what it is that whatever they do for your organization. So leaders are engaging employees and developing them towards their goals that they want to achieve. 

So it's sitting down with the employee and talking to them about why they joined this company? What is it that you're looking to get out of work? And what goals do you have and helping individuals that don't have them create them for themselves about what is it that success looks like for you in life and then finding those overlaps between what it is that they're looking to get and what are the organization needs are what's important for their customers and then really working with them to grow and become masters within their craft that align and then you know, the last of that purpose it's a connecting with individuals and things that are in the care for others. 

The big the big question in life, you know, what's the big channel Imagine life that really is motivating to you, what do you see going on in the world that you really want to make a difference in and engaging with their employees to understand where their hearts are and where their purpose is and what matters to them, and creating opportunities for their employees to engage with their purpose and the purpose of the mission of the organization. 

So aligning, finding the, the individual and aligning it with the organization and supporting a kind of a holistic view around the self determination theory, as I think the what I'm seeing the best and the brightest, if you want to focus on something that's going to drive your organization, focus on building intrinsic motivation, irregardless of the leadership style that you use, the research is evident that it's that that is really important. Of course, there are styles of leadership that are known and documented to enhance that, like servant leadership, that bring out the best in their employees. But that's a good starting point. That's kind of what I'm seeing Jack.

Jack Hubbard  26:01

Yeah. And it's just so fascinating to me. What and you see this in other industries, I see this in banking. So we hired a banker. And they go through a new employee, we do a lot of interviews, we do testing, and we know, okay, we have the right person, this is good. We hire them. And maybe we'll hopefully, we put them through some kind of a new employee onboarding program. And that's a culturalization. Here's our culture: the President comes to talk or he or she has a video or whatever, half day, good, good, good, then we go to the department. And I think that's where there's a lot of failure. Leaders shouldn't be doing exactly what you're saying. I need to I need to go to lunch with you. I need to spend the afternoon with you. And I really need to talk to you about you. Why didn't you come here? What's important to you? And all the questions, other phenomenal questions that you ask? Are you seeing that happening in other industries, where they hire people, they onboard them, and then managers are actually talking to their employees and saying, what's important to you here?

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  27:08

Yeah, the best and the brightest star? Yes. And there's a framework for it. It's, you know, most companies have been for a while they've been using exit interviews, they talked to them after they've, they're on their way out, you've said you're gonna leave the organization. So let's interview you, and why are you leaving? Well, the best organizations are doing stay interviews, they're talking to their employees ahead of time, what is it you're looking for? How are we doing, by the way, at meeting your needs around mastery and development? How's it going? You know, what do you think? And so it's an ongoing conversation. It's like you said that transition points are important getting to know them, but then it's throughout their time, check ins, periodic check ins to the stay interviews have come reconnecting and viewing. It's not just about getting the work done. It's in combination with and so the best organizations, they've integrated these processes and these questions as a part of, it's my common one to one with you, I needed to do a one to one to talk to you anyway, about the work and what's going on. And I integrate this conversation into that as well. So it's holistic.

Jack Hubbard  28:16

Yeah. And I think that, you know, performance interviews are fine. Performance evaluations are great. But what I love to see is quarterly evaluations about me. So I'm gonna do a performance evaluation on you. And if you're a salesperson, you know, you're doing okay or not, but what about me? How am I doing? Where can I get better? What am I not providing for you? And we can spend a lot of time talking about that. But that leads to my next question about a great graphic that you have in your book. And it's a long graphic. And it starts with the word virtues. And it ends with the word performance. And that's really what we've been talking about for years, discuss that graphic. That's phenomenal. 

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  28:58

Thanks. That's, I call it the device virtue continuum. And it's all throughout the book, and through each of the, of the 10 habits and all the different principles that are covered there within the book. The idea is that leadership is not something that's it's maybe a little paradoxical, and that it's not just either or it's that we're on this continuum around sort of like around performance, the idea of tolerating poor performance would be the vise on one side of that continuum and the virtue being reinforcing performance. It really being the goal, that would be the virtue. And so this was from a conversation with a actually good friend of mine going through the tactic cohort, he's like, Hey, you could lay that out. And I think it just tries to show that, again, we're rarely one. We're not all one or the other and it's just understanding that there's this tension and natural pool and some things are pulling us towards these life changing leadership habits. And those are what I call the virtues. Because they're bringing out the best in individuals. They're elevating profit and purpose.

Jack Hubbard  30:10

outstanding five factor model, this kind of starts to lead us towards some of your 10 traits. Talk about the five factor model. And also, I'd love to know, are good leaders born or that can they be?

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  30:33

Yeah, that is common. Dan, really, I think it's a great framing question, too, that we all need to wrestle with an answer, you need to answer that question. And I think another way to think about it, as you know, our leaders that are born or taught the question is, are the traits of the leader do they determine their habits. And that's what introduced this concept of the five factor model is looking at the role traits actually play in life changing leadership habits, in other words of my predestined to only be able to be this type of a leader? Or is there a way that these habits as there's this way of looking at habits that cuts across these traits, and not too surprisingly, research has really proven and revealed to us that personality traits do have a significant influence on the leadership leaders behavior, especially when we have the freedom to make choices, which is a large part of leadership is not choices between right and wrong, it's, it's the choice between right and right. 

And it's in these ways we make those that are influenced by our traits. And so the five factor model is one that's any personality assessment you're using. Typically, they're linked back to this, this model, this framework. And the five factors are causal forces and patterns of thoughts, feelings and actions within our life. And the American Psychological Association describes these as openness, conscientiousness, and it's there's an ocean is kind of a frame a way you can think about it openness, conscientiousness, the E is extraversion, the A is agreeableness, and then the N being neuroticism. And these are these inner traits, these factors that influence our patterns of thoughts and feelings again, in our actions that we take. But there's also been a clear connection between habits and leadership, personality, we know that these traits do exist, and they do influence it. 

and the good news is, though, it is possible for leaders to make changes to their behavior through persistent interventions. In other words, it's not predestined that this is who you are, then this is the how you, you act, you can actually use those inner traits to influence them, bring out your best and bring out the best in others, but you can also change and modify how you respond to individuals through development through an emphasis on your habits. So that's important because if otherwise, why should we read the book.

Jack Hubbard  33:19

Oh, it's really it's really true. It's in you need to because it's outstanding. And one of the things that I've always felt because I suck at leadership, I'm not I'm not a leader. I love to, I'd love to produce. I'm not coach, I you know, I'll coach if I have to, but but I'm not. And and it goes back to I mean, you were you were brought up Chicago in the South Chicago area. You remember the bolts and when they were so good. You look at Michael Jordan and Phil Jackson, Phil Jackson, a hulk of a man from the Dakotas played for the New York Knicks different Basketball time, they just dropped the ball down to Phil and he was a Hulk and he put it in the basket different approached him. But he went into the hall of fame as coach not as a player, Michael Jordan is somebody who you would never perhaps want your your your son or your daughter or your teammate to be coached by because Michaels about Michael and I want to help the team win I want to win. And so it's it's a different kind of situation. So I just think one of the things we we do and I don't know if you find this, but in banking, I know we do this. Somebody gets to a point where they're outstanding salesperson and they're just an MVP, and they're just kickin it. And what do we do we promote them to sales manager and give them everything they hate, which is forms and ties and meetings and stuff that they have to do. I want to be with the customers. And I'm curious in your research, what you found around people that are promoted to obsolescence wins, because they've been promoted from a high performing whatever it is to a leader.

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  35:05

Oh, sure. That's, you see that consistently. And I think a lot of a lot of leaders actually even get into this, like, why did they consider the promotion in the first place? A lot of them have gotten into leadership because it was an advancement and pay, right, it was, this is how I could make more money for my family. And so I decided I would become the leader of the organization. And you're right, that that's not doesn't always make a good leader from just wanting to have more money or seeing it as something that you think, you know, as a promotional opportunity, because you're really good at your job. Your current job is not always a predictor of success, and you have a leadership as a leader, and the role of leader credibility. Now getting back to trust, credibility is definitely one of those that benefited you from whatever the previous role was that you're going to be leading. 

If you've been in that role, you have credibility. But that's only one of the components as well. And like you said, there's other aspects of leadership that are really important to consider as well as the motivation of the individual and their mission. And what it is that why would they want to be a leader in the first place. So you're spending time and recognizing, I think, the best approaches are looking at the traits of the individual assessing those identifying their strengths from a strengths perspective. And also then equipping them with the skills and tools and aligning it, making sure that it's aligned with what it is that's important for them, that it's a part of the success and significance that they're looking for in their life.

Jack Hubbard  36:45

You make such a great point, you talk about credibility, and if I'm the manager leader, I have to have that. But if I'm a manager that I was elevated, because it's a subtitles, its power, it's more money. And I don't have another element of that trust equation, which is intimacy. I'm not going to help my people get to where they need to go, I might get to where I wouldn't go. But I might not get them to where they want to go. Couple more questions. In the book, you talk about 10 habits, and we're not going to do all the habits you have to buy. Every habit is outlined extremely well here. But I want to focus on three. Okay. One is embracing data driven decisions. I thought that was interesting. One of the 10 leadership habits talked about that. 

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  37:36

Yeah, I purposely put some in here that are controversial as well. But this one is, is one of these paradoxes. But it's really important as better decisions and taking the right decisions, making the right actions, it really requires modern leaders to embrace data driven decision making. We're at a time when there's a tsunami of data in businesses, and it's continually increasing every aspect of life. We are now collecting more and more data. And it can drown leaders that are attuned to just wanting to make decisions without better data driven decisions without a way for processing it and really worth thinking about it. As well as I see some people that are just truly resistant to data that just say, you know, just rely on gut, right? It's the blink of an eye. I don't need the data, I can just in the blink of an eye decide, this is what we should do. And this is what's best. 

Without a proper analytic structure and a culture, you're going to increase cost and fail to realize the true competitive advantage of an organization in today's world because other organizations that are figuring this out, are actually going to be able to compete at a different level when they understand that mean, take a sports analogy, which I love. I'm so glad you brought that into the conversation because I find it so fun. It's a great metaphor. Moneyball, did you ever watch that movie? So? Yeah, so it's that idea of looking at the game differently. And everyone said, Oh, your data doesn't matter in baseball, it's not you know, you, you don't need it. And then they found that actually, you can build a better team if you understand it. 

So there's a continuum again, the vise and the virtue I look at the via break this one down, and I say there's intuition versus data, intuition being a potential vice, and data being a potential virtue for the for the organization in the individual. I also say it's about experience on one side, and analytical orientation on the other. We think about hiring. We've talked about that a little bit and promotion, and promoting people based on experience without also thinking about their analytical orientation. We need leaders that have that bent on looking at data and value that and reinforce Words that are within culture. So the term embracing is really about this idea that I can use this data to unlock the potential for what might be in my organization. And don't resist it. Don't just put up that wall like those early people that were looking at the Moneyball idea and just saying, you know, it's never gonna pan out, you've got to look at how can I embrace it to help me become better? How can I make it another tool in my tool belt, and for the organization?

Jack Hubbard  40:31

You manage numbers, people. Habit number six, in your book, is excelling in management. So I thought, Well, wait a second. It's leadership and management. 

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  40:48

So number six, a little bit. Yeah, excelling in management really requires leaders to diagnose and engage with their followers appropriately, right. So both individually and as a team, and that doing too much or too little, in any one of these directions can increase stress and productivity and creativity. So you got to really get this right, otherwise we can diminish this in an organization. So the vices and virtues that I talked about in the book are there's one selective listening and active listening within an organization leaders that are selectively listening for information to confirm what it is they already know, versus leaders that are actively listening to learn what they don't know. And understanding they don't have everything that they need, engaging in bringing out and, you know, so in the conversation, tell me more, you know, leaning into this to really listen, that's one of the vice virtues. 

So look at coercion versus influence. And talk about the differences between those two words, and also jump to mismatched versus Partnering for performance. Blanchard talks about this within situational leadership of this idea of aligning and making sure that I'm not just hands off, kind of the country club leader. But I'm also not the micromanager putting people on a death march. And so it's this balancing of this partner and realizing that it's complex, you don't in one situation, I need the person that's telling me exactly every little detail, because I have no clue what it is that I'm doing. And other contexts, when I fully understand that you tell me every little detail, and it's a mismatch, it's going to frustrate me and and so this idea of this life changing habit of really excelling in this idea of really, truly managing and leading is complex. And I wanted to just touch on how these critical few elements bring out the best in individuals.

Jack Hubbard  42:51

I want to talk about one more thing. And it's a challenging one. It's called embracing failure. Wow. How do you put that in a leadership book, Jeff?

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  43:05

Yeah, heresy, heresy. I liked it. I, my uncle who I wouldn't write the book with, we went back and forth on he's an editor ran an editing company. And he did an initial review on my book and gave me feedback. He's like, What are you thinking? I just don't understand this. And I did. I've made that intentional to try to create some friction with people. I would say embracing interesting failure. And innovation is increasingly important in every organization. If you're staying, if your goal is to stay the same next year, or this year, as it was last year, you're going to be out of business, you have to look at, no one wants to stay the same. They're always looking to grow and improve and adapt as the world changes. And so the challenge is organization organizations want certainty. They want success. They want efficiency, right? I mean, those are all things. Those are good things. Who doesn't want efficiency? Shouldn't we, you know, constantly improve? There's been a huge push for agile, Learn Six Sigma emphasis on these incremental improvements to your organization. But yet, its uncertainty, its failure, and its inefficiency are actually sources of innovation. And organizations wonder well, so there's this tension. 

You know, I need this micro improvement, this incremental improvement, to gain efficiency, but without this idea of failure, and uncertainty, you don't get to the source of innovation. So organizations are really designed today to limit innovation and a question: why is it that we're not innovative? Why is this large organization, not innovative in their processes and systems, all reinforce the things that are counter to environments that produce innovation. So embracing failure really creates the space for growth and innovation now, and I call it an interesting failure because I'm not saying go out and intentionally try to fail. organizations that do that will fail. So you need success, and you need results. And but there's a couple of vice virtues, one is the vise of being a fixed mindset. 

And another virtue being a learning mindset that I can learn and grow and adapt. And that I'm constantly looking from what worked which didn't have a simple way to implement this as these after action reviews that the military uses. What worked? What went, well, what didn't? And how can we improve from the next time that we get engaged? In this way? There's just a simple tool that way to live that out. The other vice virtue continuum, I talked about avoiding failure versus supporting failure. And you think, do I really want to support failure in my business? Well, without it, you're not going to innovate? 

So you want to support a worthy or interesting failure? How do you create a culture and I've seen organizations that if you fail, you're done. You're not going to get that promotion, you're not going to go anywhere in your career, and you may not stay in that company too long. And if you're not failing, though, you're not going to be able to innovate. So that business, that organization, the board, the business leaders need to look at how we can support interesting failure within the business? And I outlined some practical tools and tips around how you can do that but it is controversial that one and selfless love or loving followers are the two I think create the most controversy in the book. Oftentimes, people bring those up. And I think it's, we do need to think and wrestle with this as leaders what this how can we embrace failure

Vertical IQ  46:59

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Jack Hubbard  47:16

You gotta buy the book to get all 10. They're really really good. And I looked at this book as a workbook, I think it's done, written by a college professor. But I look at this as a, as a roadmap to kind of help me through some issues here. So I gotta throw a curveball, you know, a veteran banker the other day, younger than me, everybody's younger than me. And I said, you know, I remember when I was my very first bank, my managers were all older than me. And we were all younger. You said, Yeah. And it's Jeff, about how you lead people across generations. Because here's what we got. Now, we've got, let's say, I'm a 38, or 42 year old leader, I'm going to be leading people that are in their 20s. My peers, older and maybe much older, because the senior citizens and that generation continue to be employed. So I'm curious what you've seen, and how you lead different generations differently.

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  48:27

Well, the good news is that the proven principles in the book, translated across all generations, the principles stay the same. How you do them is where you need to look at how you shift. And it comes back to you know, knowing your team, knowing your individuals, listening to them, finding out how they communicate, if you think that they're going to communicate and interact with you the same way that you would interact and communicate. It's not it's not going to happen the reason why is the world has changed, I think we have seen so much transformation in the world, just think about it, you know, in your lifetime and over the all the technology, I was thinking about that when my grandfather to before he passed just all the changes that he saw. 

And now think about all the changes you've seen in your life. And now we think about the next generation and all the changes they're seeing in their world is different. And they're responding to their world in ways that make sense. Because they need to and it's different it's unique to them but it's trying to understand so we have to we have to work to stay up on those types of changes and then realize then how we can adapt it's just like knowing our customer we know that we want to see the world through their different lenses I oftentimes like for I have a coffee mug in front of me and so I hold it up here and I say you know Jack describe what you see you're gonna see one perspective. 

I'm looking at the same coffee mug. I'm going to explain it differently. Who's right you know who's right Well, it's, it's, we're both of us. We both have different perspectives and it's the same situation. And really looking, I would say this is if we have to look at this generation and all the generations as an enabler, just like it would be diversity in thoughts and business, we want to understand that generation because they're going to be the future clients and customers of that organization. So the proven principles stay the same, but really communicating, getting to understand them, knowing them, and then adapting to those differences. 

My son, my kids, that are, you know, in that millennial, Gen Z, kind of world, they don't use email, they, they, they use text, and it's, but yet, the same communication needs to happen, whether it's verbal face to face, because that's what we prefer, it's email, because that's what they prefer, or text, that's what they need, you know, a really understanding the individual and meeting them where they are, and keeping that mindset that they're not broken. They're not, they're not bad, they're different. And there's a reason why their world is perfectly designed for their response to it. The results that you're getting as a leader are there until you change, you're not going to see a difference in those outcomes. So it's really trying to understand and learn and get to know them better. And how you can do that is really easy. It's talk and listen, that's the skill sets that we've learned and honed over our career. And it's having those conversations and, and realizing that sometimes we have to change as well.

Jack Hubbard  51:41

I have a concern that there's going to be 20 years from now 45 year olds, one of the leaders and one of what a colleague, and they're sitting across the desk from each other and the leader is going to do a coaching session. And instead of talking they each pull out their phones and that's topic for another discussion. Well, Jeff, you've been very, very kind with your time. This is a phenomenal book. Other than yourself, then you reference Charlie and Mike, Dave Meister and others, who are some of the folks that you follow in the leadership space that would benefit my listeners.

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  52:17

 Sure. All throughout that book, there's citations again, I none of those ideas are standing on just my just my ideas. These are all proven principles that others have done research and work on. And I've done that to make it easy for everybody else. So please understand that and then there, there's the citations, you can look at any of these areas and start to dig into them. So I would call out when I wrote the book, I actually I kept in mind, I enjoy reading Patrick Lencioni some of his work, I find his writing style for me is enjoyable. I like some of the science elements to it. The story is different from how I look at the world. And so I enjoy some differences in those that I've read and followed. I'm a big Ken Blanchard fan I early was introduced to Blanchard and I think that I enjoy his kind of frame of reference and how he's looking at things from a leadership perspective, then I would say so those are two I would say leadership thought leaders that are in the space of leadership development and then on just to practical leaders that are out actually leading people that I would recommend they do TED talks on and are following them. 

One I'll surprise is Cheryl Bachelder she's leader she used to run Louisiana's Popeyes chicken, the restaurant chain now she's a leader within Chick fil A the Chick fil A organization she wrote a book called dare to lead I think she's a one of those practical leaders thought leaders in the space of leadership. And then one that's not in I would say is not in the field of leadership development. Again, another just out there leading that I really enjoy following is even Sharon Suresh Miss mystery. He is at Sodexo and on the board for North America for Sodexo. Sodexo is a one of those organizations that has family owned servant leadership, some great approach to leadership perspectives. And what I've seen when I've listened to him talk about the things that he's done as a leader and of the ways that he approached even in light of the response to COVID. Just fascinating. So if you're looking for if you like a just a leader that's talking about leadership, I think those are those are a couple Sherilyn Shiro sort of two I'd call out.

Jack Hubbard  54:47

Excellent. Well, Jeff, thank you for your time. You've been very kind with it. This is a terrific book, talk about how to get a hold of you. How to get the book Okay, and any blogs or podcasts that you're doing yourself?

Dr. Jeff Doolittle  55:05

 Sure, yeah. So organizational talent.com is my website for my company. And I do write a blog, weekly blog, or for leaders to help inspire organizational individual effectiveness. And so it's called organizational espresso with the idea that it's going to activate some new thinking and create some espresso caffeinated ideas for you. So that's a weekly blog, and you can access that and subscribe through my website. Also, you could just always email me if you prefer to do that info at organizational talent.com We'd get you in touch with me as well. I'm also on LinkedIn. So then I enjoy connecting with your followers out there and having conversations if any of this is inspired by an idea or thought I enjoy the networking and the connections. 

Jack Hubbard  55:57

That's outstanding. Everybody, buy this book. It's outstanding. Dr. Doolittle. I promised myself I would only say that once during the program. Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. 

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