Season 2, Episode 34: Dr. Cindy McGovern

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Dr Cindy: Perfect.

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Jack Hubbard: So, as I mentioned in the intro, I met Dr. Cindy through Corey Perlman, who's been on the program before written a book Dr. Cindy has written 2 bestselling books. Here they are. She sent me both of them. Today we're going to talk about this one. Sell yourself

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Jack Hubbard: how to create, live and sell a powerful personal brand, Dr. Cindy. Great to have you on the show.

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Dr Cindy: Thank you so much, Jack. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Jack Hubbard: You know it's too bad that we didn't get a chance. You don't get a chance to hear the behind the scenes before we hit the record button. We've had a great conversation, and Dr. Cindy knows everybody, and it's it's so exciting to talk to you. Let's let's start with with your background. Talk a little bit about your background. And what got you to this point?

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Dr Cindy: So I was a college professor. That's what my! I went to school to get my Phd. Thought that was my track, and when I started teaching. I realized I liked adult education a little more than the 18 year olds on a Monday morning, and started consulting, went into consulting, and about 6 months in got put into a sales role, and truthfully, I thought I was going to get fired. I'm like I can't sell. I'm not a salesperson, and a few months in that role, I thought.

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Dr Cindy: oh, my goodness! How did I not get taught this skill and that changed everything that was pivotal moment I was in sales, and then I started my own consulting company. And then I was like, I gotta write books to help other people, too. So that was the thing. It's it's sales is a life skill, not a business skill, as you know.

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Jack Hubbard: That's really true. And you know this is small business month in May, and it's perfect timing for you to talk about orange leaf consulting and Orange Leaf Academy, because small business owners really should be working with you. Your training is amazing. Talk about what you do and who you help.

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Dr Cindy: So the Orange consulting is truly a consulting company, and we believe in getting in helping you and then getting out of your way. So we're not going to park in your boardroom for the next 5 years. And it's really about developing leaders to lead a sales organization. Whether you have dedicated salespeople or not. I believe every job is a sales job. And so we want to get in there and help you create

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Dr Cindy: really a sustainable growth trajectory, recognizing your unique position in the market, how you tell your story as a brand and as a business owner, and then our Orange Leaf Academy as an extension of that which is on demand, courses with live Q&A. So that you know it.

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Dr Cindy: No matter what size of your organization, we have a resource for you which is really important to me. I want to be able to help as many people as we can.

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Jack Hubbard: That's very cool. And I and I gotta ask, because all companies are named for certain things both of your book covers are orange.

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Jack Hubbard: So I'm I'm I'm thinking that maybe Orange Leaf Academy has something to do with your favorite color, or the fact that you were born and raised in Florida. I don't know

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Jack Hubbard: what was the how did you decide on that title for your company?

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Dr Cindy: I was literally trying to figure out something that represented change that people weren't afraid of, and everybody seems to love fall when the leaves change. It's like, if you really think about the metamorphosis that a tree goes through, it's kind of brutal. It's literally leaving behind the things that are not serving them and being reborn in a more powerful way. And that was where orange leaf came from. And I love fall, and I thought.

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Dr Cindy: this is a way to represent change, that people can embrace.

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Jack Hubbard: Awesome. Well, you've got 2 great books, this one here. Every job is a sales job was a Wall Street journal bestseller. We're going to talk about this one today. That is a big book award winner. I'm always interested about inspiration for writing a book. I remember when we Bob Saint Meyer and I, my business partner, wrote our 1st book, our only book, and I was doing a speech

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Jack Hubbard: in Philadelphia at the Federal Reserve, and at the very end. Everybody left, and there was one guy left in the room, and he came down, said, Do you mind if I talk to you? And I said, no, he said, you know what you've got a you've got a great story to tell. You should write a book. And I said, Yeah, like anybody buy anything I would write, and he said, No, they they really would. And he said, It's not only the book, it's what happens after the book.

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Jack Hubbard: And so we ended up writing a book, and it turned out to be a bestseller in banking. I'm curious why you did this. What was the impetus for writing these books?

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Dr Cindy: So when I got into the sales role and I started consulting, I realized I was helping a population that was already out of school. I was helping a population that was in business, and so much of our focus. We work with sales teams, we work with service teams, account managers, things like that.

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Dr Cindy: but it's so much bigger than that. And that book, the 1st book, every job is a sales job is the book I wish somebody had given me when I was 18, and I don't understand why this isn't a course this should be taught in high school, and so I wrote the book that I wish somebody had given me. And then the same thing for the second book I realized there was more to say. And so it's really important to me that we reach

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Dr Cindy: folks so they can realize and reach their own potential.

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Dr Cindy: And I think people are so afraid of the word sales. They they shy away from that. And I mean truly, Jack, I'm on a mission. By the time I'm done we might need a new word. So I want people to realize you're selling every day whether you're selling yourself. You're selling your ideas. You're selling your colleagues on a project.

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Dr Cindy: It's all sales.

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Dr Cindy: And so that's really where the impetus for the books came in is, I want people to realize if you have this skill, it's going to help you reach your own goals that much faster.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, that's so true. And and I think you know, life is so serendipitous, you know, you know.

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Jack Hubbard: How do you know who you're going to marry for you? You don't. How do you know where you're going to go to college? Does your parent do your parents move to Florida? It's all serendipitous.

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Jack Hubbard: But the reason I'm mentioning that is because your personal branding story

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Jack Hubbard: started with a stereotyping comment, and I think that was the tipping point for you to say I got to do something with this. Tell that story.

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Dr Cindy: Yeah, I was about to finish my Phd. And it was really right before I was about to defend. So anybody that's ever gone through their thesis defense or their dissertation defense. You know the nerves and the butterflies, and one of my professors pulled me aside, and truly gave me the best gift I could have been given.

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Dr Cindy: he said. Girls who look like you are not supposed to be smart. So when you get in that room, remember that. And at the moment I didn't know what to do with that, Jack, I'm like. Was this an insult? Was this a helpful comment? What do I do with that.

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Dr Cindy: It was really meant to coach me and help me to realize that no matter if I've done the work, I did all the original research. I did all the statistics I did. All the ethnography didn't matter when I got in in front of those 6 people. I just sell myself to them, and

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Dr Cindy: that's the moment where everything shifted. And I really started thinking about my brand and my, and you know we called it reputation back. Then personal brand wasn't a buzzword, and I started thinking about that, and I had always been

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Dr Cindy: professional, carried myself well, but it was the idea that no matter what I did. I had to remember. Other people saw me through their own lens.

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Dr Cindy: and it did change everything, and that was part of what later brought me to write the book, sell yourself.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, I want to pick at this a little bit. You're in a group. You've written 2 2 bestsellers. You have a phenomenally successful business. You speak everywhere, you.

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Jack Hubbard: You have done a phenomenal job as a human being.

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Jack Hubbard: But the story that you just told, I think, is

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Jack Hubbard: told every day to women in certain ways, shapes or form. I'm curious about what you found in working with professionals and small businesses, men and women. How much more difficult is it

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Jack Hubbard: for a woman to establish her personal brand versus a man establishing his personal brand.

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Dr Cindy: You know what? That's a really good question. And and I think that there is some differences. I don't know if it's a level of difficulty or a degree of difficulty, but there certainly are differences, and I think it depends on where you are. If you're in the Us. If you're in another country there are cultural boundaries, norms guide rail, you know, guardrails.

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Dr Cindy: but I think for women. There's an internal conversation that men I find in my coaching and and consulting work they don't seem to need with themselves. There's a piece of this imposter syndrome that comes up for women. This lack of personal permission for themselves

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Dr Cindy: to be able to say, I can do that. And you know we've all read the statistics that say, if you know, both candidates are 80% qualified for the job. The man will apply and the woman won't. And it really is that internal conversation. So I think

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Dr Cindy: that little I call her the co-pilot imposter syndrome that copilot that women have, I think, does make it harder for them to create a personal brand that's truly authentic. Also because of the hats that are worn. Mother, sister, wife.

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Dr Cindy: business partner, volunteer all of those things, and it's not to say that men don't have those as well. They absolutely do.

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Dr Cindy: but I don't know that their co-pilot is as loud.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah. And and I think I've gone on a lot of joint calls with bankers.

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Jack Hubbard: and I've gone on with women and men, and I've heard from customers that men are assertive and women are aggressive.

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Jack Hubbard: and I don't understand. I really I don't. If you're a salesperson and you're a good human being, and you want to sell something that benefits the customer.

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Jack Hubbard: Isn't that what this is all about? But we're we're still in this age. We're getting better. We're getting better, but we're still there, and you probably you face it certainly every day.

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Jack Hubbard: As I mentioned. Small business month is May, and and so I'm a small business owner.

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Jack Hubbard: Why, why do I need a personal brand in in 2025? And if I do need one, where do I start?

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Dr Cindy: So I think, 1st of all, so many of the businesses that we work with begin a small business. That's really our job at Orange League, consulting Orange League Academy is help them to grow. So we do a lot of work with this, and I get that question so often, Jack, where people are like. Well, I don't need a personal brand. I have the business brand.

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Dr Cindy: No, especially if you're a small business. They're buying you first.st

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Dr Cindy: You've got to sell yourself before you sell anything else, and you know this, and I'm sure you've coached to this on on sales calls with bankers as you have to go in and you sell yourself. Then you sell whatever the rest of it is. So as a as a small business owner, I think it's imperative that you're clear on your brand, because then the business becomes an extension of that people are buying into you. First, st think about the 1st day you open your doors as a small business.

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Dr Cindy: Who comes to your opening. It's everybody, you know. It's the people in your inner circle. It's not a bunch of strangers, but what your goal is is to get them to buy you by the extension of you, which is your brand, your business, and then amplify that message, and if they're unclear on who you are and how that business works, they don't have a story to tell, and I always tell people you have a personal brand, whether you realize it or not.

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Dr Cindy: So you might as well have one on purpose. Right? So when you think about if you're already having that brand similar to the advice that my my college professor had given me.

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Dr Cindy: I had a brand, according to all of those other people. It was my job to grab the pen and control the narrative.

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Jack Hubbard: So define it for us. Personal brand reputation, whatever you want to call it.

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Jack Hubbard: define personal brand for us in 2025. What does it mean?

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Dr Cindy: It is what people say about you when you're not in the room at at the core.

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Dr Cindy: and that can change. I believe that we're multifaceted people, you know. If my friends who have dogs are talking, I am a total dog, mom. I've become that woman I used to make fun of, you know, so totally get it. If they're talking about business, likely they're going to bring up my consulting company and what I do there. If they're talking about books. They'll bring up that I'm an author. We all have that. We all have those multi facets.

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Dr Cindy: but it's still our job to control the narrative around it.

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Dr Cindy: And I think that's where people don't realize it is our legacy that we're building every single day. And you're either building that legacy up or you're breaking it down

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Dr Cindy: one or the other.

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Jack Hubbard: Wow!

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Jack Hubbard: You know what you said is so simple. It's you know what people say about you when you're not in the room.

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Jack Hubbard: How does. How does somebody go about? I guess.

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Jack Hubbard: as a business owner, you've created your personal brand, whether you like it or not. But if I really want to define this better. How do I go about creating that? What are some, some steps that I need to go through.

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Dr Cindy: So the 1st thing is, I think you have to begin with your own core values. What's most important to you? What's your moral compass. What's your north Star? And you know, breaking that down even to thinking about words that you want people to say

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Dr Cindy: I'm kind. I'm not nice. I'm kind. There's a difference if your baby's ugly. I'm going to tell you, you know, in in business that's we're very blunt in that regard.

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Dr Cindy: But I'm going to be kind about it. I'm going to give you the steps to fix it.

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Dr Cindy: I want people to say that I'm kind. I want people to say that I'm passionate. I want people to say that I'm helpful. So everybody can do that exercise. In fact, probably as as people are listening and watching this, they're realizing the words. Once you have those words, then you start crafting the story around that of what you want them to tell. What are the other words you'd like for them to use, and then be really honest with yourself.

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Dr Cindy: What are the words they're using that you don't want them to?

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Dr Cindy: What's the story out there about you. We all have blind spots absolutely. So what are some of those things that they're saying that are not part of the legacy that you want, are you? You know, when I hear from really business, busy business owners is, I'm always late. I'm always running late.

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Dr Cindy: Okay, the world. The world is late, you know. But is that part of what you want people to say about you? Is that part of your brand? If not, what can you do to fix it so, having a little bit of a self inventory

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Dr Cindy: is a key to those steps to building your brand as well.

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Jack Hubbard: I am really glad you brought this up. We we just built a house, and

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Jack Hubbard: I said, and we work with a contractor, Steve Vincent, who's on Linkedin, and just a great friend, and we've worked with him for 35 years. So when when we were going to build this house, Steve, was the answer. There was just no other

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Jack Hubbard: question here but one of the things that's fascinating to me about subs

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Jack Hubbard: or and their business people is the lack of follow up?

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Jack Hubbard: And I think that's 1 of the things that you're you just talked about. Is that blind spot?

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Jack Hubbard: How do you get? So you said, you know, okay, there's blind spots. How do you get people in their own personal brand? Because that is your brand to say, Okay, I'm always running late. Oh, God, I hate that! But how do you get people to stop that? Whether it's lack of follow up or always being late? What do you do to teach them to not do those things?

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Dr Cindy: 1st of all, the lack follow ups one of my biggest pet peeves. So I'm with you on that one, because I think it's a. It's a disrespect for the other party, too. It's. And so when you think about the implication on the other people.

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Dr Cindy: it might change your mind, and people are very forgiving. We hit traffic, we hit, you know things, but it's recognizing this affected someone else.

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Dr Cindy: And then what is the story they say about that. So I think you start there. But to that point of the lack of follow up and those kinds of things, it's creating space in your calendar and being ruthless about prioritization. I believe in ruthless prioritization and recognizing what those pieces are. So something that I hear a lot from

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Dr Cindy: busy business owners is. Oh, you know I'm I'm scrambling in the morning, and I'm grabbing whatever is clean and not at the dry cleaners.

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Dr Cindy: Is that part of your brand disheveled or wrinkled, or you know, we we think about those things. And if you were going on a job interview, if you were going to pitch to an investor, you would absolutely be mindful of what you were putting on in the morning. You would make the time

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Dr Cindy: to create

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Dr Cindy: your brand before you walked out the door every day is just as important. You never know who you're going to run into. You never know who's going to be at the coffee shop you're selling every single moment. So 1st of all, it's the awareness of that, I think, is super important. But also you have to be willing to make the sacrifice. Maybe you sacrifice 15Â min of sleep because it's more important that your brand is put together in the morning. You've got to have that prioritization, and

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Dr Cindy: there are choices to be made. And this is where people, I think, fall short, too, is the follow up.

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Dr Cindy: You have to create space in your calendar to do that, and unless you start blocking time to get into good habits around that, the follow up doesn't happen. But again, it's a choice you're making on your time, and it's hard to

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Dr Cindy: teach, but it's easy to execute, truly, to making a choice.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, and here's the other problem. I think you talked about reputation, and I think that was a moniker that we would put together for ourselves before social media. And now social media has kind of helped transition into personal brand. And I think the problem and certainly love you. Comment on this

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Jack Hubbard: one of the challenges is that

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Jack Hubbard: in the in the old days, before there was the Internet, it was bad enough because there was word of mouth. If you didn't follow up, or if you weren't there on time today.

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Jack Hubbard: I'm on this thing called. I think it's called Neighborhood, or something like that, where you. You know people go to a restaurant and they say boy, did that. That was awful. Don't hire this plumber, so it's got to be harder today than ever before to keep your personal brand safe and sound.

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Dr Cindy: That is so true. And you know we we teach this even in our workshops, with clients that

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Dr Cindy: back in the day you'd have one angry.

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Dr Cindy: You know, customer that was walking around town telling people. And maybe they'd interact with 5 or 6 people that week. I can tell

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Dr Cindy: hundreds of thousands of people

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Dr Cindy: in 30 seconds on my phone when I walk out of your establishment. And that's the other thing, especially for small business owners, is really important that every interaction with a customer, whether they purchase from you or not.

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Dr Cindy: they become a walking advertisement.

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Dr Cindy: So when you start thinking about every person that encounters you at the coffee shop because you're representing your brand. They see you with your name Tag, or your company logo shirt. They now have an impression of you and your company.

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Dr Cindy: What story are they telling?

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Dr Cindy: And once you think about it like that, it really does change kind of all of those pieces, because you want good commercials out there for you, and

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Dr Cindy: it's up up to you to control that narrative.

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Jack Hubbard: Boy, that's a great point, and I want to talk about that in in the in terms of your bank's brand and your personal brand. So I'll tell you a quick story. So this is back. When I was probably 25 years old.

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Jack Hubbard: and our bank the bank that I worked at sponsored our softball team.

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Jack Hubbard: So after softball we'd go out and have a beer no big deal, nobody got crazy. But so the next day, one day after that we were to the game the bank president called me and he said, Hey,

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Jack Hubbard: He said, you guys are drinking a little bit too much after softball games, I said, what are you talking about?

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Jack Hubbard: He said. One of one of our customers saw you at Xyz Place, and he said, Do me a favor, he said. One of 2 things, he said. Either we won't sponsor the team anymore, or when you go into the bar, change your shirt.

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Jack Hubbard: and

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Jack Hubbard: that really hit me. I never re, I mean, we weren't doing anything crazy. Yeah, but it that to the customer.

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Jack Hubbard: The bank was at the bar drinking right. So I guess my question to you is, I work for a bank.

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Dr Cindy: They have a brain.

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Jack Hubbard: I have a personal brand as as you teach it. To that I want to amplify.

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Dr Cindy: How do I? How do I connect the 2?

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Dr Cindy: So they're already connected. And I think that's what he was trying to share with you is, those are. Those are connected regardless because of where you work because of the company you own they are 100 intertwined. It's recognizing that from 9 to 5.

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Dr Cindy: Your business brand is in the forefront

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Dr Cindy: from 5 to 9. Your personal brand is in the forefront, but they're both selling the same things.

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Dr Cindy: and I think we sort of forget that a lot of times it's like, Oh, well, I don't have my shirt on. Nobody knows they do. Every the world world is very small and very vocal these days, and so a lot of times like when I'm coaching folks who are going to a seminar or they're going to go to a conference. I always tell them the minute you walk out your door you're already at the conference.

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Dr Cindy: and they always giggle, and they're like, I've got you know I'm gonna fly across the country. I'm gonna be comfortable.

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Dr Cindy: No.

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Dr Cindy: you are representing your brand the minute you walk out your front door. You don't know who's going to be sitting on that airplane. You don't know who you're going to run into in the airport, and we all have stories of hearing that right?

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Dr Cindy: So it's recognizing that you are the representative of that brand. And the brand is also a reflection of you. And this is also why, you know, back in.

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Dr Cindy: I guess it was around the nineties when eighties nineties, when Ben and Jerry really came to the forefront and they were fighting to get shelf space. And all of this. And it was the values led business. That was the the term. Back. Then values led business and people aligning their values with the company they work for.

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Dr Cindy: That makes it easier. That makes it easier if you have that. And as a small business owner. It's very easy, because they are your values. When you work for a larger organization, that alignment is still very important. Otherwise

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Dr Cindy: it it puts the 2 brands in conflict. It's almost like you wear a mask. It's I. I'm playing a part from 9 to 5, but then I'm really me from 9 from 5 to 9. It it creates a little conflict and some brand confusion as well. So it's something to consider and something to examine, that you are truly aligned in what you're doing.

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Dr Cindy: 24, 7.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, so true.

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Jack Hubbard: I we did a program

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Jack Hubbard: several years ago, called the Financial Forum, and we invited speakers

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Jack Hubbard: and one of the speakers that that I wanted to have was this famous author who does a lot with customer experience.

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Jack Hubbard: and he was fabulous and and really worked with the audience. Well.

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Jack Hubbard: one of the bankers who flew in to Chicago saw the person after the program on the way home interacting with a gate agent at O'hare field.

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Jack Hubbard: and he was screaming and yelling and swearing, and it was like, Wait a second. What's the disconnect here? So to your point you're you're certainly on 24, 7. 1 of the things that you talk about in your book, and one of the reasons I like. It is your stories and your practicality. You talk about 3 critical components to be a successful personal brand. Talk about those 3.

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Dr Cindy: So the 3 components are, you've got to create your brand. You've got to live it authentically every day, and you got to sell it.

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Dr Cindy: And so the creation is being mindful. Knowing those blind spots and recognizing what it is you really want people to say. I think a lot of people have what I would call an accidental brand. It's the one that others have assigned to you.

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Dr Cindy: But is that really what you want similar to my story about my college professor. So, recognizing that you got to create it, and you got to be mindful about it in all of your choices. Every choice you make. You're going to just run out, you know, in your sweatpants. Okay, it's a choice. But who are you going to run into? So the second part is, you've got to live it every single day. It's got to be in everything you do and everything you don't do. And this is where people forget your lack of response

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Dr Cindy: is part of your brand. Your delay in answering that text or email is part of your brand, especially in banking, is so important because there are actual timelines a lot of times with different things. Right? So it's recognizing what that is and how you show up.

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Dr Cindy: how you're truly living it. And to your point, that particular person, you know, they weren't living it authentically. And remember, we live in a camera society now.

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Dr Cindy: somebody snapping a video, somebody snapping a picture you just do not know. So it's really important, I think, to live authentically. But if you've created a brand that's

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Dr Cindy: not really you. You're not going to be able to keep it up. So you've got to be honest about it. You've got to be, you know. I I would love to say that I am the person that only eats salads. I'm not that girl, so

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Dr Cindy: I'm not. I love a Brownie, so you know it's not something I'm going to say, or try to be

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Dr Cindy: be you, and step into it fully in everything you do. And then the last part is kind of a little bit like the follow up we were talking about. You've got to sell it every day. You've got to be proactive about promoting it, and this is hard for some people, because they think oh, I'm not braggadocious. You don't have to be. You're selling it already. If you are convincing your spouse or business partner to do a retreat or a vacation in Hawaii versus the mountains

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Dr Cindy: you're selling, and you're selling yourself in that moment.

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Dr Cindy: and we have to be mindful that it's our responsibility to be proactive. And that's the difference. Everybody, you know, banking knows services. The reactive part sales is the proactive. It's just about being more proactive, prompting that follow up prompting the actions that you want people to remember.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, you brought up a very key word for me, and this is where some people get conflicted. You talk about authenticity. I watched you on. Larry Levine's selling from the heart, podcast and Larry and Daryl are good friends, and their books are amazing, and and you were fabulous on it, and they're very big on. I mean, everybody should be. But they're very big on authenticity. I think that's part of their personal brand

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Jack Hubbard: and business brand. How do you square this circle? I want to be authentic.

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Jack Hubbard: but I'm always I'll call it on. I'm always on, because if I'm out there and I wear my sweatpants. People are going to go. Gee, what a slob! How do you square that circle between authenticity? I wear sweatpants and the personal brand which is you wore sweatpants.

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Dr Cindy: Yeah.

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Dr Cindy: it's a great question. And I always share the example about Dolly Parton. You know everybody loves Dolly, and if you really think about it. You've never seen Dolly not being Dolly

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Dr Cindy: never seen her, and you've never seen that at all. And that's because her personal brand is incredibly diligent. That's who she is. Funny story about Miss Dolly is. She sleeps in her makeup.

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Dr Cindy: and then she changes it out in the morning, because lest some emergency in the middle of the night. She doesn't want the emergency services to see her not being Dolly. So that is very much authentic to you know the nth degree.

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Dr Cindy: but I think you can be in the sweatpants as long as you're still you and put together like when I'm going to the gym.

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Dr Cindy: I am not.

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Dr Cindy: you know, to the nines. I'm going to the gym. I am working out, but I'm still kind. I'm still helpful. I'm still all of those things. So it's not just the attire. It's the behavior. And I also think that something that's really important about, you know, squaring that circle is.

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Dr Cindy: don't try to reach too far out of who you actually are. And that's where people can't square it is. It's like, Well, I think I miss

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Dr Cindy: make a baby step grow into that if that's really where you want to be.

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Dr Cindy: and allow yourself the grace to do that. And

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Dr Cindy: I think that's where the inauthenticity comes in. But I also have a rule around this we are on.

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Dr Cindy: You're on all the time, whether you're a podcast host, whether you're a banker, whether you're a loan officer whether you're a speaker, we're always on.

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Dr Cindy: So I look at it kind of as like

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Dr Cindy: Dr. Cindy, plus 10%. And on those days where I don't have 10 to give. Stay home.

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Dr Cindy: rest. Give yourself a break, because that's actually brand protection

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Dr Cindy: is giving yourself that, and especially in banking, everything moves so fast nowadays we're doing more with less where your customer facing in so many ways, whether it's a colleague who's a customer or the actual consumer.

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Dr Cindy: There are those days where you just need a minute.

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Dr Cindy: Give yourself the grace of that, and that will help protect your brand.

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Jack Hubbard: We're talking to Dr. Cindy Mcgovern today and her book selling yourself, sell yourself fabulous book, and we're talking about personal branding.

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Jack Hubbard: But I gotta ask a question. You know, when when banks merge.

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Jack Hubbard: or when things change or a bank expands into their market, there could be some rebranding of the bank. It's not easy to do, but it's the company versus the people

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Jack Hubbard: you talk in your book a little bit about personal rebranding.

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Jack Hubbard: What is that? When do I need to do a personal rebrand.

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Dr Cindy: So, interestingly enough, we actually have a consulting client that's a bank that acquired another very large bank that was actually bigger than them. And they were going through the rebranding, which is where they brought us in, and

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Dr Cindy: part of my workshop began with their personal brands, and I think everybody thought we were going to go in and do these big, you know, whiteboard brainstorming session about the company brand? And I said, Absolutely not. Everybody in this room

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Dr Cindy: is a walking commercial for the company. Now we need to bring out everybody's best superpowers. We need to think about it, and it's not that the brand is different. I actually think the brand is stronger and different by bringing those together, Melding, that so recognizing that. And I think that, you know that's an easy time to rebrand you merge 2 companies.

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Dr Cindy: Same thing happens with an individual. You take a new role.

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Dr Cindy: That's a rebrand. Your company changes. That is a rebrand. Everybody thinks, oh, you were Bank X. So those are natural moments, also different phases of life. When people have children, that is a rebrand. Priorities shift. If your goals have changed, your priorities have shifted or your desire has shifted, it's time to rebrand.

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Dr Cindy: and just recognizing that and giving yourself the grace to do it, and it was very funny I was at. We had a work retreat this past weekend.

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Dr Cindy: and we were talking about

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Dr Cindy: overextending ourselves, and that we just tend to do that. It's we over commit. And one of our colleagues said she had a friend that responded to a dinner and said, I'm not going because I don't want to. And I thought that was the best answer. And what's happened is she's rebranded herself in that one text message to the entire group, saying, I'm creating a personal boundary. I love you all, but this is not for me, and I'm choosing me over

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Dr Cindy: overextending.

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Dr Cindy: And so that's a rebrand, and we, I think we do kind of micro rebranding every day, depending on who we're with.

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Dr Cindy: But if your world has shifted or you desire for it to it is time to rebrand.

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Jack Hubbard: Fascinating

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Jack Hubbard: you. You mentioned your friend toward the end of the book. You talk about your friend Rosella, and you tell a story about Rosella, and I want you to tell a story. But where I'm going with this is one of the things you talk about in that in that snippet of the book is personality facets. So talk about Rosella, and what are personality facets.

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Dr Cindy: So personality facets are all of those things that make us up right, and and we are all of them truthfully. We are kind. We also have bad days. We have all of the things, but when we think about the facets of our brand, it's recognizing which ones are working for you

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Dr Cindy: and which ones are working against you and being able to elevate that we are not all 100% sunshine and roses every day, and we have to be mindful of that. We have to be aware. And that's kind of where you know, if you're not, you plus 10% stay home. But I think it's very important to recognize when to bring up the facet of your personality, when to bring that up. And if you need to rebrand in the

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Dr Cindy: moment, and I'll I'll tell you a very quick story that that just happened. A friend of mine has 3 kids, and she

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Dr Cindy: became super mom, as I will call her. She was making the cupcake. She was doing all the things, and she literally said, I cannot be that mom anymore. And I said, okay, well, how? How is this going to work for you? Because literally, every other parent in the class

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Dr Cindy: just lets you do it. And and she looked at me, and she goes

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Dr Cindy: paper products. And I said, What! And she goes. I volunteer before anyone else to bring the plates, the napkins, and the

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Dr Cindy: so she's still contributing. She's still doing that. But she's not overextending that facet of her brand. So it was just very funny in that moment that she was like, I need to bring up a different facet. I need to show them I'm a working mom. And I'm doing this. So I think that when we think about the personality

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Dr Cindy: with edges to our personality when you know Rosella had edges to the personality.

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Dr Cindy: are you working towards the brand you want to be, or are you working against it, and recognizing how to balance that with other facets of your

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Dr Cindy: your brand?

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah. And it was so interesting how

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Jack Hubbard: little things make such a difference. The story about Rosella when you went out to a restaurant and she was the only single woman there, and she, a gentleman, saw her, and they had some type of connection, but tell the rest of the story because it really amplifies exactly what you talked about around the small little personality facets that make a difference.

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Dr Cindy: So it depends on how you're looking at the moment. Right? So everybody sees it through their own lens. And so with Rosella sitting there and having a wonderful conversation. You sell different facets of your brand in the moment in that

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Dr Cindy: interaction. So, talking to this gentleman, you know, they're connecting on. Whatever the topic was. He's having a reaction to her brand. She's having a reaction to his brand. Are they seeing eye to eye? And this is something that's really important for small business owners, too. Are you reading the room? Are you seeing the other person for who they are in that moment.

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Dr Cindy: what they need when you leave, when you are departing from the conversation.

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Dr Cindy: what is the lasting impression you're leaving the other person with?

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Dr Cindy: What is the lasting impression that they are walking away with. And Rosella was the single woman in the group. And so there is sort of this.

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Dr Cindy: We brand that person right if everyone else is married. Everyone else is partnered up. You're branded as this person. But Rosella was in her business attire. She was still wearing business clothes in that day. She didn't think she was putting out that vibe. And so you've got to recognize other people are ascribing things to your brand as well. Did she like the gentleman? Yeah, I think she did.

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Dr Cindy: but it was too buttoned up, too professional for him. She wasn't realizing what his

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Dr Cindy: read on. The situation was. So I'll tell you another story that was about me and Rosella. All the stories in the books are true, and they're actual people, but her name's not, Rosella. It's something else. But but I got feedback after a speech that I gave not dissimilar to her that somebody came up, and they said, Oh, I was so afraid to come and talk to you after, because you're so put together. And I thought, Okay, well, I try to be put together. What it was is. I was wearing

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Dr Cindy: power suits, as we would call them now, and that was intimidating.

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Dr Cindy: That wasn't my goal. So I changed the way that I dress for different occasions. I change the way I'm gonna wear. You know. I was at a Women's Retreat that was at a Spa resort.

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Dr Cindy: I was very dressed down to match that. So when you think about Rosella, she was still just dressed in her business attire. She wasn't trying to sell something in that way. That's just how she showed up at the bar, and the other gentleman was seeing her through his lens. And this is also I want to go back to something you said

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Dr Cindy: when you said you ride with the men, and they're seen as assertive, and the women are seen as aggressive.

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Dr Cindy: Whose lens is that.

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Dr Cindy: and recognizing you may have to sell against that to make the connection you're looking to make.

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Dr Cindy: And that's where Revelim is. It.

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Jack Hubbard: That's fabulous. You've been kind with your time. I just have a couple more questions. You have 11,000 followers on Linkedin. You have a great brand on Linkedin. It is fabulous. What do you advise? Small business folks and bankers who choose to be on Linkedin? But when I look at their profile. It's like this is as my friend Kevin Turner says, this is personal branding, not branding. What do you advise them to do?

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Dr Cindy: You know what? That's such a great term, and and he's a genius for that. I wish I'd have thought of it. It's it's such a good, good message because it's true.

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Dr Cindy: A lot of people look at Linkedin as the digital business card of this year. Right? It's if you're not on Linkedin. Do you really exist? It's like the phone book of today. If anybody remembers phone books.

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Dr Cindy: the problem is we have to remember that that is networking our brand. 24, 7. And if you are googled by anyone, likely, that's the 1st thing that's going to come up because of algorithms. SEO, all the things that happen, you know, in the in the metaverse. So when we start thinking about the fact that that is a 24, 7, highlight reel and commercial

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Dr Cindy: might change the way we look at our Linkedin profile, and it isn't a resume. In my opinion the Linkedin profile is the story of you.

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Dr Cindy: and helping it. Reflect that. Yes, it can say where you worked. Yes, it can say your accomplishments and awards.

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Dr Cindy: But does it get me to know you in a small snapshot. Does the picture even reflect you so often in my coaching, Jack, I go to people's Linkedin profiles as business owners. And I say, okay, well, is this the you that you want them to remember? Is this the thumbnail that you want to come up in their phone when you contact them.

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Dr Cindy: When you start thinking about Linkedin as that, it changes the way you view it.

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Jack Hubbard: No doubt about it. So this book came out in 2023. It's just 2 years ago.

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Jack Hubbard: but it's 2 years ago, and things move so fast. I'm curious if you wrote this book today.

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Jack Hubbard: And now we have AI everywhere, and other things that have gone on with personal branding, reputational risk, etc. What would you change? What or what would you add if you did a version? 2 of this book.

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Dr Cindy: Funny enough. Version 2 is actually coming out soon. I'm working on the second edition of both of those books. But AI is a huge component of that. And it's actually becoming

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Dr Cindy: a crutch for a lot of people. And we can see it, you know, if you use AI to send me an email. I know it doesn't sound like my friend Jack. It sounds like a robot, Jack, so I do think AI can be a tool to help you. I think it can kick, start brainstorming. I think it can do lots of things for you, but it's recognizing that's not your authentic brand. That's a bot.

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Dr Cindy: And so you've still got to figure out how to bring that into you to your brand. And that's it's funny, because that is actually one of the newer sections in the book. And then you mentioned reputational risk and part of what I also in the second edition I talk about is

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Dr Cindy: the world is shifting around us. If your brand is not evolving with it, then your brand is becoming stale

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Dr Cindy: because we have to look at how the world is shifting. And what I actually wrote this book coming out of the pandemic when I started working on that book was because we had gone through the great resignation, the great remorse. And I said, We're in the great Rebrand. This is a chance for people to truly

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Dr Cindy: figure out who they are in this new hybrid, remote, online world and bring that message to the forefront. So I think a lot of that has also shifted with AI components of customer service. AI components of I mean, you know, we have chat bots before we ever get to an agent. In a lot of ways we have to recognize how that represents your company, brand your personal brand, and then evolve with that as well. So those are some sneak peeks into

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Dr Cindy: second edition.

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Jack Hubbard: We look forward to seeing that. And right now this book is available, and you should go out and buy it. Sell yourself how to create, live, and sell a powerful personal brand, Dr. Cindy, if somebody wants to hear you speak, and I would love to do that, or if they want to get a hold of you. Talk about how they reach you.

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Dr Cindy: So I'm very easy to find [email protected] DRCI [email protected]. And then on my social media. I post when I'm speaking somewhere that's public and open. I also post. If the client lets me of where I'll be if it's not open, and so you can follow me at firstlady of Sales, one St. Lady of sales. I'm on all the platforms, and I would love to hear

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Dr Cindy: from anyone that that reads the book, or something that resonated from from today's conversation with you, Jack. I'd love to hear how they're building out their personal brands. That's 1 of my favorite things. Having written these books is people you don't even know

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Dr Cindy: reach out to you and tell you what they've done. And there was a gentleman in China when the 1st book actually came out, and he messaged me and said that he actually got a promotion by using my 5 steps in the book, and I said, Oh, my gosh! That's like the most amazing thing. So so I'd love to hear from folks about their success stories.

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Jack Hubbard: I'm better because Corey Perlman reached out to me and suggested that you be on the show. My audience is better because of your tremendous insights, and everyone would be better if they bought this book. Dr. Cindy. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

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Dr Cindy: Thank you so much, Jack. This was great fun.

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Jack Hubbard: Okay, how was that for you?

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Dr Cindy: Right. That was so fun. You're a great interviewer.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, thank you very much. My background. And people say that all the time. Here's the other thing people say. You actually read my book. I said, well, you said it to me. Why wouldn't I read it? I'm going to interview you.

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Dr Cindy: So.

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Jack Hubbard: Fascinating. Yeah, my, my background's in radio TV sports play by play. And so I I spent a lot of years in interviewing people. And my final exam to graduate college

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Jack Hubbard: was, I had to do a 30. This is 1973.

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Jack Hubbard: I had to do a 30Â min interview with somebody I'd never met, and I got a 3 by 5 card that had one line about the person, and I had to do a 30Â min interview, and the only way I could do that was to listen.

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Jack Hubbard: I'd listen and do follow up questions. So thank you for saying that I think everybody has a good skill, and I think that's something I do pretty well, and you're a great writer and a great speaker. And so my next step, I'm going to follow up with Kay Miller and my daughter Erin to connect you. You are very welcome to send the program out to your network, and I wanted to let you know

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Jack Hubbard: program is going to be on.

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Jack Hubbard: Oh, what's gonna be on in May? It's gonna be on on May 14.th

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Jack Hubbard: So perfect.

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Dr Cindy: We'll blast it!

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, we'll send you some marketing stuff ahead as well, and you're welcome to use it in any way you want.

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Dr Cindy: Thank you. Yeah. We will put it on all of our platforms. Get you some new followers, too, and I will send out your information to my authorized community. Get you some new guests as well, and I'm so grateful for just to know you. This was so fun.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, thank you very much for your time today, and all the best, with your continued great success, with your book and your companies and all you do for your for your colleagues. Thanks so much.

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Dr Cindy: Thanks, Jack, have a great day.

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Jack Hubbard: You too. Bye, now.