Season 2, Episode 25: Frank Cespedes

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Jack Hubbard: So, as I mentioned in the Intro, one of my favorite authors is Andy, Paul and I love to listen to Andy's podcasts and a lot of others, of course. And so one day I'm listening to this guy talk about sales management. One of my favorite subjects and I thought I ought to have Frank Cespedes on on the program, Frank. Great to have you with us.

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Frank Cespedes: Jack, thank you very, very much. It's a delight to be on your podcast.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, thank you. And you wrote this tremendous book in 2021 Sales management that works the title grabbed me because I love practicality. And what's really interesting, and we don't have time to talk about it today because it's an excellent book. You should go read it. You've divided the book up into 3 parts, people process

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Jack Hubbard: pricing and partners. And we're going to talk about all of those things today. But you've had an amazing background. Your background in education. Harvard Business School. You continue to educate people at. You're an entrepreneur. You're a board member, so

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Jack Hubbard: give us a little sense of Frank's Cespitus.

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Frank Cespedes: Well, listen, Hubbard. Flattery will get you everywhere with Frank says, but the truth is, I don't think my background

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Frank Cespedes: is that exotic. I went to graduate school, you know. Got my doctorate, then started teaching at Harvard's Business School in the marketing area, worked my way up the hierarchy.

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Frank Cespedes: and then, with some others, left Academia, we started a business, ran that business for about a decade, and we got lucky when need be. I can spin this a different way, but frankly it was. It was dumb luck we sold at exactly the right time. Harvard called me up, said, how'd you like to be a professor again, and I said, yes.

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Frank Cespedes: and throughout my research there I'd always sort of been the sales guy working on that topic which, at the time, by the way, was not

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Frank Cespedes: very, very common in Academia sales was considered, like, you know, trade school stuff.

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Frank Cespedes: And then, when I left and ran a business, my interest and respect for that topic increased. When you've got to make payroll every month, you, you develop a deep interest in sales and business development. But that's basically my my life story.

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Jack Hubbard: You know, and I think you're right. I think, having you been on both sides of the desk

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Jack Hubbard: has got to help your education process.

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Jack Hubbard: I'm curious.

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Jack Hubbard: What are you seeing from students these days, Frank? There was an article that I read from a company that I really respect, that talked about how marketing is kind of being disdained a little bit at Harvard and other higher education organizations. What are you seeing about with the students these days around their interest in marketing.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah, well, I think what you're saying. You know I don't know the article, but you know I hear the message, and I don't want to sound, you know, paradoxical, or, you know, like the economist who says, on the one hand, this, the other hand, that

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Frank Cespedes: I think the the answer to that question is yes and no. Let me explain, and I'll also tell you a little bit about the students. 1st of all, the Mba students are as smart as ever. In fact, in my view, probably smarter than the average Mba. 20 years ago, and the reason has nothing to do with Harvard. It has to do with the way the economy is developed and so forth. We now get students

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Frank Cespedes: who 20 years ago would never have gone to business school. They'd have gone to Med School Law School, Phd. In economics. Now they get an Mba. So in terms of sheer IQ. It's as high as ever.

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Frank Cespedes: But again, because of changes in the economy.

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Frank Cespedes: And Harvard Business School is a good example because we require work experience. On average, our students have 4 to 5 years of work experience between undergraduate and Mba.

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Frank Cespedes: But if you look at what they did before going to a business school, they were essentially data analysts at a private equity firm, or a bank, or whatever you know in classes. I teach cases about doing performance reviews, and I always ask the students how many of you had to sit down with a human being and do a performance review before the Mba class.

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Frank Cespedes: And it's now down to about 25%. But that's what education is about educating people in that. When it comes to marketing, there's definitely been a significant decline

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Frank Cespedes: in the interests that students have in classic consumer product

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Frank Cespedes: goods, marketing positions. You know the Pngs of the world that used to be a good 20% of the class taking jobs there. Now, it's it's de minimis.

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Frank Cespedes: But what's taken its place? All the interest in entrepreneurial activities. And if you're interested in an early stage venture, you don't have to convince the student to be interested in sales and business development. Call it whatever you want marketing, you know, asparagus. We're talking about the same thing. So that's what I mean by yes and no.

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Jack Hubbard: This is your second book, Sales Management, that works one of the things I like about it and highly recommend around it is its practicality.

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Jack Hubbard: Talk about the inspiration for this book. What got your your mind going and saying I need to write this book.

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Frank Cespedes: Well, I basically had 2 motivations in writing this book. The 1st one call it an intellectual professional motivation, you know. As I said earlier. I've been doing research around this topic for over 30 years, and I think it's decent research. And at the same time, what I noticed is, it's a field filled with one off

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Frank Cespedes: anecdotes. So I wanted to write a book that said, this is what research does and does not tell you about this core activity in business.

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Frank Cespedes: And the other reason is that I think it's a particularly good time for a book like this. I think there's no doubt whatsoever that online digital technologies, AI, etc. Are changing business development and sales processes. But most of what I read

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Frank Cespedes: about what people say about those things, I think, is simply disconnected from managerial reality and from the available data about this. So I wanted to write a book that that addresses that as well.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, it's outstanding. And and I got to ask you, even though the book came out 4 years ago, which sounds like a very short period of time

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Jack Hubbard: from 2021 to 2025. So much has changed. So let me ask it this way. If you were to write this book today.

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Jack Hubbard: What would you add? What what new stuff tools, technology techniques? What would you add to this book in 2025.

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Frank Cespedes: Well, let me 1st tell you what I would not add or change, because I you know every so often you want to take a victory lap. You know. What's that old saying? Predictions are risky, especially about the future, right? The predictions about the past are easy. If you look at that book written in 2021. Everybody was talking. How the pandemic changes everything.

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Frank Cespedes: and that book argues, no, that if you look at buying and selling, they've always been social as well as economic experiences, and a once in a decade, pandemic will not change that watch. What happens. And I think I'm exactly right about that 4 years later, and you know we can. We can look at the data if you wish.

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Frank Cespedes: What has changed. When I wrote that book interest. Rates had been at historic lows for over a decade. Right? Bankers know this, and as a result

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Frank Cespedes: it was sort of old fashioned for a while, especially in growth businesses, to talk about profitability, profitability. Well, as interest rates, real interest rates have gone up, the cost of capital has gone up, profitability counts. And again, I'd like to think my book helps there

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Frank Cespedes: and then. Technology, you know, AI was just a phrase when that book was written. Now it's real. We're in the midst of hype about AI. But that doesn't mean it's not having, and will continue to have

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Frank Cespedes: a significant impact. And I'd probably talk more about that. And perhaps we want to talk more about that on this podcast because I think there are some obvious ways. It will affect sales. And I think sales will be affected in the near term by AI more than any other business function, because you can measure the results in sales in a way that it's more difficult to do in other areas of business.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah. And and I want to pick at that right now, because you deal with Mba students who are younger entrepreneurs, hungry and real sales oriented as you've mentioned. How have your classes changed to reflect? AI. Now, as a pretty significant part of sales.

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Frank Cespedes: Well, look, Jack, look! Look, you know, look at me! Once upon a time I looked like Jimi Hendrix. Now look at this head.

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Frank Cespedes: I have not changed that much. My teaching philosophy has always been to focus in the limited time you have in any class, in any university focus on the perennials. They're there to get it. This is Mbas students in particular. I think this is important

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Frank Cespedes: unless they make the tragic mistake of going on for a doctorate.

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Frank Cespedes: The Mba is the last time they're going to be in school for any significant amount of time. They can always catch up on the latest whatever after they graduate. So I think the education should be about stuff

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Frank Cespedes: that's going to be important throughout their careers. There are things we know about buying and selling independent of the techniques I tend to focus there. I don't really spend much time with AI in particular, but others do, and others, in fact, already, as we speak, are using avatars

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Frank Cespedes: in classes to simulate buying situations, selling situations. And obviously, we're only in Chapter one

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Frank Cespedes: of that use of technology.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, you mentioned the buyer, and

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Jack Hubbard: whether it's AI or sales management, or coaching, or whatever you want to talk about. This is all about the buyer. If if you can't put the buyer in the center of your thoughts, it doesn't matter how good your business is, it's going to fail.

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Jack Hubbard: So talk about buyer behavior, and and especially regarding the implications of hiring and training around that whole process.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah. Well, 1st of all, I want to agree with what you said, and let me also say at this point in my balding career that I've been astounded at. How many experienced, well-educated business people forget this core truth.

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Frank Cespedes: The most important thing about selling

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Frank Cespedes: is the buyer, not the seller, but the buyer who buys why and how, and that is changing right now. I'm gonna get academic for a few moments, Jack, but I hope our listeners can bear with me because I think it. It makes the point

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Frank Cespedes: for over a half century. For more than 60 years

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Frank Cespedes: buying, and therefore important aspects of selling has been conceptualized

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Frank Cespedes: in terms of what academics in their jargon call a hierarchy of effects model, and what they're getting at with that jargon is that the job in business development is to move the prospect from awareness to interest, to desire to action. A. ID. Aida, as in the Verdi opera.

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Frank Cespedes: and that has dominated the way people think about sales, they think about it. Look at the metaphors. It's a funnel. It's a pipeline, this sequential linear process.

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Frank Cespedes: But that's not the way buying occurs by the 3rd decade of the 21st century.

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Frank Cespedes: The buyer is now online and offline multiple times during their buying journey. They're getting information, not only from your website

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Frank Cespedes: or from your salesperson. They're getting it from influencers in financial services are going to 3rd parties, either for research or or comparables, etc. It is an omni-channel buying world.

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Frank Cespedes: And that is the most important impact of technology right now. And at the end of the day in order to respond to an omni-channel world in most categories. And by most, I mean 90%, you need a multi-channel sales response. So that's the important thing, and as you mentioned, that affects it does not mean that it's a digital leads physical world.

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Frank Cespedes: I'm going to cite another bit of data.

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Frank Cespedes: If you look at e-commerce include Amazon, everybody e-commerce as a percentage of total retail sales

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Frank Cespedes: before the pandemic. It was about 11%. Obviously it went up in the pandemic up to about 16 and a half percent it has trended down since then. And it's now seems to be stabilizing at around 16%.

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Frank Cespedes: When I ask executives that question, what do you think e-commerce is? As a percentage of total retail sales in the Us. I routinely get estimates between 30 and 60%.

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Frank Cespedes: In other words, they're not a little bit out of touch with this core fact about buying their orders of magnitude out of touch. So it's not a digital eats physical world, but that omni-channel buying world, enabled by technology does affect the things you were talking about, hiring training, the kinds of metrics we need if we're going to be effective.

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Jack Hubbard: Who stay with metrics.

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Jack Hubbard: We are in an industry, in banking that tends to to measure what I like to call lags

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Jack Hubbard: lag measures. How many sales did you make? But

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Jack Hubbard: and what what I'm trying to do, and what some of my colleagues are trying to do is to have have bankers look at lead measures, because that's where coachable moments happen, and we're going to talk about coaching in a second.

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Jack Hubbard: What are you seeing in either banking or other industries.

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Jack Hubbard: some innovative ways where people are actually tracking metrics that matter.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah, well, I don't see as much of that productive innovation as you would expect. The reality is, it's not just many banks, but throughout industry. Most of the metrics that people have are, as you point out, lagging indicators, sales is sort of exhibit. A sales is an outcome.

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Frank Cespedes: It's already happened. You know, all business decisions are about the future. They're not about the past. The past has already happened. So that's not just banking. That's most places. By the way, AI will not change that. AI is only as good as the data inputs. And again, the data inputs

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Frank Cespedes: are the past. I'm on the board of a company where we sell AI tools to

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Frank Cespedes: 2 companies, including financial services, companies, and the tools are mainly aimed at lead generation and lead qualification.

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Frank Cespedes: And the interesting thing is that what happens when the customers buy these tools, they immediately get a very significant productivity bump. And the reason is that what the AI algorithm is doing is almost always better than the accumulated folk. Wisdom in their sales force, because that folk wisdom is tied to their compensation plan, not to the market.

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Frank Cespedes: But what those AI algorithms do, Jack, is they simply double down on pattern recognition.

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Frank Cespedes: Meanwhile the market is doing what it will do. It's changing. And what you see happen is that after a year, 18 months, 2 years.

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Frank Cespedes: that productivity, improvement flattens and you get declining, diminishing returns, not because of the tool. But because the data inputs are out of date. And this is, I think, a topic you're going to hear more about going forward

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Frank Cespedes: when you need to update those AI algorithms. That's not a simple thing. It's not like, you know, Delete, this. Add this, Microsoft has done research about this. And I like the way they describe it. They talk about changing these algorithms is like trying to extract the sugar from an already baked cake. It's expensive, etc. So

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Frank Cespedes: the lagging indicators, I think, are pervasive. Now, what do you do? Where do we look for this? And there are tools coming on the market that help omni-channel buying world?

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Frank Cespedes: Where is the customer in their buying journey? Both online offline, etcetera. And therefore, when are the best times to do whatever we do in marketing, content, marketing, or getting a salesperson

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Frank Cespedes: in front of the customer, either in person or virtually. That, I think, is an increasingly important metric, and the second one in an era of higher interest rates and longer selling cycles. What can we do

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Frank Cespedes: to shorten that selling cycle? And again, that, I think, is an important leading indicator where tools are coming. I don't. You know. It's not like I can cite for you a number of companies doing that. But there are companies working on those issues.

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Jack Hubbard: You one of the metrics.

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Jack Hubbard: Not a not a metric. But it's it's a way to hire people. And you. You talk a lot about this in the book.

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Jack Hubbard: You also, as I mentioned in the introduction, you're a contributing editor on a very regular basis to top sales magazine. And, and, by the way.

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Jack Hubbard: anybody that hasn't subscribed to Top Sales Magazine, you've got to go out and do this. There's great articles by Frank here. There's a number of Joanne Black Dave Curlin, a number of great people.

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Jack Hubbard: But you wrote an article in one of the top sales magazines about using sales assessments.

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Jack Hubbard: and when I when I talk to bankers about sales assessments.

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Jack Hubbard: they'll so they'll say things like, well, they can game the system.

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Jack Hubbard: They're expensive, talk a little bit about sales assessments, what you're seeing and why they're so valuable.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah. And I think by sales assessments, I I know the article you're referencing you the assessments one uses for hiring right couple of comments about that. First, st I think it's important to step back.

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Frank Cespedes: There have always been challenges in hiring in sales that just don't exist to the same extent

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Frank Cespedes: in virtually all other business functions. I mean, for example, if you want to hire an engineer, you can go to a school, and it's a bit, Jack, like walking into a food court? Right? What kind of engineer do you want?

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Frank Cespedes: Electrical engineering? etc, etc. The same is true. If you're hiring someone in finance accounting or computer coding. Right? You can find people that majored in those subjects. That's not true in sales of the 4,000 plus colleges and universities in the United States. Last time I looked, which is, when I was writing this book.

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Frank Cespedes: less than 300 even offered a sales course, let alone a sales program. So it's an area where most people start out knowing very little

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Frank Cespedes: about what they're gonna get paid for. Right? That does put the onus on the hiring company to assess

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Frank Cespedes: what they're getting at now, couple of things about

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Frank Cespedes: about hiring, and then where assessments can and cannot help.

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Frank Cespedes: The 1st thing is, you have to know what you're looking to hire

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Frank Cespedes: if you look at, and I think I can speak to this point with some authority at this point in my career. If you talk to sales managers and say, Well, what are you looking to hire? What kind of person you basically get these lists of qualities

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Frank Cespedes: that are a vacuous. And B only Michelangelo or Michael Jordan could fulfill right some Renaissance man or woman.

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Frank Cespedes: and sales again, is very, very context. Specific selling financial services is different than selling software different than selling capital goods, etc. So the 1st thing is, you got to specify. What are we looking for in terms of our business and our particular strategy? And then the second thing and this is where I think assessments can help

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Frank Cespedes: throughout hiring in business, and what I'm about to say is as close to an established truth as anything you will ever hear from a management professor in general, managers vastly overrate their ability

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Frank Cespedes: to judge somebody's fit for the job based on a few interviews. The data about this, you know, has been consistently below 0 point 5 for decades. In other words, below, you know, below the average of flipping a coin when you hire someone.

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Frank Cespedes: That's where assessments come into play

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Frank Cespedes: because the good ones are usually better than that gut feel that managers use. But here I think there are 2 things in order to use an assessment effectively. And this is essentially what the article is about.

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Frank Cespedes: The 1st thing is, you got to use the right assessment right? I mean most managers. In my experience when they talk about assessments they're talking about some version of you know, the old Myers-brigg tests. Those assessments were never developed

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Frank Cespedes: to be used for hiring, and, in fact, their internal validity, as we say in Academia, is very, very shaky. There are better, more focused assessments. So 1st make sure you're using the right tool. And then the second thing is, make sure the person using it knows what the hell they're using.

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Frank Cespedes: You know, many sales managers don't really know what the assessment is telling them, and so what do they do? They use it to? Simply justify their gut feel about the candidate? So I think assessments play a role, but they have to play a role in a a more rigorous hiring process. I always remember something

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Frank Cespedes: a an executive told me when I was brand new as an academic. I was writing a case study.

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Frank Cespedes: and it was about hiring and training, and he said, Frank, watch what you're going to see in your career.

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Frank Cespedes: Most companies treat their equipment better than their people.

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Frank Cespedes: And he was right. If you look at the way companies buy software. It's so much more rigorous in most companies than their hiring processes, especially in sales. So you know. Begin there, then pick the right assessment tool and make sure you train your people in how to use it.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, that's brilliant, and I and I want to end our program by talking about coaching. But but let me go on a brief rant here.

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Jack Hubbard: I've seen statistics that if you hire a commercial banker

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Jack Hubbard: and you make a mistake, it costs the bank $250,000.

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Jack Hubbard: The other thing. That's that, Frank said, and I want y'all to think about is he didn't say it exactly this way.

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Jack Hubbard: Every salesperson cannot be successful in every sales organization. And that's 1 of the key reasons for a test.

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Jack Hubbard: If you're selling software, which is more of a product sale. Now, it's a relationship sale. I get it. But it's a product

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Jack Hubbard: versus a bank where you're trying to develop a Cni situation. And you're and it's a long cycle sale.

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Jack Hubbard: The same person cannot necessarily be successful just because they're a great salesperson in both organizations. And that's why one of the main reasons why testing is is so vital, and if it costs 250 or $300,

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Jack Hubbard: it's it's money well invested, no doubt about it. And and the other thing, Frank said before I go on to coaching is a sales manager or a hiring manager needs to understand how to read that that report.

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Jack Hubbard: If if you don't, all you're gonna do is to say, well, here's the test set, and we should hire this person. And that's not what we're what we're looking at.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah, no, I yeah, I agree. In fact, I I'd add 2 other things.

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Frank Cespedes: and and financial services is a good example. I mean look. Retail banking is different than commercial banking is different than investment banking. And even within those segments company strategies differ in business. There's no such thing as performance in the abstract. There's only performance in our company with our products in our market. And if you look at the data about

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Frank Cespedes: poor performers in sales. Most of that poor performance can be explained.

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Frank Cespedes: That person has capabilities, but they're not a good fit for this job. It is not that hires responsibility to say, I'm not a good fit. It's the hiring manager's responsibility to figure that out. And again, I agree with you. 100. That's where assessments properly used can help.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, you never make a bad loan until it goes on the books, and you never make a bad hire until you hire.

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Frank Cespedes: Or, as you know, the old saying, remember you hired your problems. That's exactly right.

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Jack Hubbard: No doubt. Well, this has been fascinating, but I can't leave this interview

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Jack Hubbard: without talking about coaching in the book. You spend a lot of time talking about coaching, and in the September 2024 top Sales magazine you talk about coaching, and you suggest that less than 15% of sales managers. And this is not your data. I don't think it's it's another company, Sandler. 15% of sales managers spend as much as 25% of their time coaching.

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Jack Hubbard: Talk about the state of coaching today in sales.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah. Well, I mean, not only does the Sandler data suggest that

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Frank Cespedes: despite all the talk about coaching, it is not occupying a lot of time. When you look at that 25% that 15% of the managers spend there. It's not really, I think, Jack, what you and I would mean about by coaching and development.

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Frank Cespedes: They're essentially compensation discussions. You will or won't get the bonus. You will or won't get the raise. That's not coaching. So the situation is even worse now. A couple of quick comments about coaching

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Frank Cespedes: for me, coaching and performance reviews are intimately linked.

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Frank Cespedes: Right and you know my advice to managers in most industries you want to improve your business development activity. 1st place, to start, get your managers to take performance reviews seriously and train them in how to do this. This is one of those areas of business.

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Frank Cespedes: We don't need to talk metaphysically the way most people talk about leadership, right leadership becomes almost a semi religious discussion in many companies doing a good performance. Review is a very, very trainable skill invest in that. Secondly, and banking businesses are a good example of this.

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Frank Cespedes: So much of the really important information required to keep up with changes in the market are not in the Crm. System.

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Frank Cespedes: They're lodged in the heads of the particular account managers dealing with those accounts, and that information only becomes unlocked and actionable when you do a good performance review. So when busy managers do what I call drive by reviews.

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Frank Cespedes: they're not only perpetuating a culture of underperformance in their organization, they're inhibiting the flow of vital information.

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Frank Cespedes: And again, the last comment I'll make coaching has to be specific to the individual. Any sales organization is composed of people with different strengths and weaknesses. Right, Jack, you and I are the only people who are perfect. All the others have certain strengths, certain weaknesses, and your job is not to get somebody born again as a manager. Your job is to help that person be incrementally more productive.

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Frank Cespedes: And that's usually an a person specific issue when it comes to coaching and development.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, no doubt about it.

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Jack Hubbard: What's next for you? Another book on the horizon, more articles that we'll see what's what's going on in your.

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Frank Cespedes: Well, you know the book that you were kind enough to hold up at the beginning. That's actually my 6th book.

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Frank Cespedes: and after every book I've written, I said, well, that's the last one, and you know and here comes another right now I'm in that phase. Well, that was the last one I don't know, but in in my case it's going to. You know. What do I know about what do I work with companies on? Call it? Whatever you want. Business development, growth.

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Frank Cespedes: growth is a perennial topic. There are very few alternatives to growth

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Frank Cespedes: in, not only in companies, but in society. Growth is how opportunities are created. Growth is not only good for you, it's good for your kids and your grandkids that's not going to go away. So if I do another one, it'll be something around that topic.

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Jack Hubbard: Great. Well, this is an outstanding book. I highly recommend that you purchase it, and execute on the things that frank kind of talks about, Frank. How do people get a hold of you? If they'd like more information.

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Frank Cespedes: Through what I'd call the usual suspects. Jack. You know there's Linkedin. I do have a website, although I confess I have literally not been to that website in probably 3 years. I don't know what's there. The last 2 books about sales have been published by Harvard Business Review Press, and so you can go there, or you can go to Amazon. Those are the ways to do it.

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Jack Hubbard: Frank. You've been very kind with your time and people that don't know. You know. I met Frank in mid 2024. We scheduled something far out because he's does a lot of teaching. He's done a lot of classroom work, and he's a busy guy. So Frank Cespedes. Thank you so much for your time and congratulations on a great book.

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Frank Cespedes: Jack. Thank you an absolute pleasure. We'll do it again at some point. I hope.

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Jack Hubbard: Okay.

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Jack Hubbard: well, thank you for this very much. It's it really is an outstanding book. And I do hope we get a chance to do this again. One thing I always ask my guests

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Jack Hubbard: is if you know somebody

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Jack Hubbard: that now you've been through the process. If you know somebody who sales sales management, marketing those kinds of things. That's that's a guest of mine. So if you know somebody that would be great. Do you know, Zach Mercurio, by any chance.

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Frank Cespedes: I don't. But tell me if this is useful. Look, you know, let me just begin at Harvard Business School. You know I'm not the only one writing books whenever there's a book on. And to be blunt, Jack, what I've learned you're in the best sense much more liberal about topics than the title modern bankers suggested to me.

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Frank Cespedes: If you want, I'll forward information about you, your email and say, Hey, contact this guy, if you're you got a book, you should be doing podcasts. That's, I think, the most immediate way that I can help.

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Frank Cespedes: And then and here I'm biased because I just joined his Board of Advisors.

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Frank Cespedes: I have an old friend, he, when I was running a business. He's the best Hr. Person I ever met right, and he in turn, as his career developed, he wrote a book

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Frank Cespedes: about what you and I would call free agents. You know that that that area of the economy that's that's grown. We now have all these platforms for that.

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Frank Cespedes: And John he was an Hr. Person at a big bank.

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Frank Cespedes: And you might enjoy. If he's interested you might enjoy talking with him

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Frank Cespedes: about that aspect of the economy, because he's not only smart, he's articulate and well spoken as well, and you know that's not necessarily a high correlation.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, for sure, John. What's his last name?

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Frank Cespedes: Younger, YOUN. GER. Jonathan Younger. You can find him on Linkedin. But send me an email. If you're interested I'll send an email to John, and I'm sure he'll get together with you. It's in his interest as well.

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Jack Hubbard: That's great, that's great. Well, Frank, thank you so much for this flexibility and for your time today it really is a great book, and as soon as I get the thing edited I'll get you a link. You're welcome to do anything you want with it, and I do hope that we get a chance to do this again. This was fun.

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Frank Cespedes: Yeah, and we can go into more depth on a a topic or 2.

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Jack Hubbard: Absolutely thanks thanks again, frank.

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Frank Cespedes: All right, thank you. You have a good day. Welcome to the new home.

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Jack Hubbard: Thank you so much. Bye. Now.