Season 2, Episode 23: Tamsen Webster

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Jack Hubbard: So, as I mentioned in the intro, I met Tamsen Webster through a variety of different sources, not the least of which is my friend Larry Levine, and he said, You got to interview this lady. She's got 2 tremendous books out, and he is correct, Tamsin. Great to see you today.

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Tamsen Webster: It's great to see you, Jack. Thank you so much.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, let's let's start at the very beginning. And you have a a i love your your Linkedin headline. It's teaching English, is it?

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Tamsen Webster: Oh, English to English translator. Yep.

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Jack Hubbard: It's fabulous. And and so I want to talk about

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Jack Hubbard: your company first, st and then we'll dive into 2 of your books. Message, Design Institute. Talk about what you do, who you help, and how you help them.

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Tamsen Webster: So the message design institute is all about teaching people the necessary and important skill of persuasive message design, so that they can do it on their own without having to hire fancy consultants or agencies or things like that. It's really about helping people understand both the principles and the frameworks to apply those principles that can help them.

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Tamsen Webster: You know, in critical conversations, sales, update sales updates, business development meetings, sales, pitches, content all of the things where you're trying to get someone to understand and ideally act on some kind of new idea. I mean, essentially, it's all about, how do we create changes in thinking and behavior and the tools to help people do that.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, let's talk about tools for a second, because you, you know you have to live under a rock. If you, if you haven't heard about Chat Gpt, and lots of people are using it. I'm curious in your work and with your clients, and what you're seeing with your clients, how it, or how active have they been using chat, gpt.

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Tamsen Webster: So I would say it varies. I am a very active user of generative AI. My go to search engine right now is perplexity, which is a AI assisted one, and my favorite generative AI is Claude AI. And I use them, perhaps in

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Tamsen Webster: less expected ways, but in ways that really align with what they're what they're good at, so I'll get back to that in a minute. But I would say that for my clients it's it's variable. The folks that I know that are generally early adopters of technology. They're all in. They're exploring it. They're figuring it out. Any of the folks that I know that are very efficiency minded are oftentimes they're figuring out that it's saving them a lot of effort.

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Tamsen Webster: And I would say a lot of the folks that I know that are in kind of marketing sales. That kind of thing have done a lot of dabbling, but I would say that the average you know, I do a lot of work with, you know, business leaders. And I do a lot of work with startup founders and with researchers and researchers and research scientists.

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Tamsen Webster: This is the spectrum. I would say. It's a spectrum for people who are like

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Tamsen Webster: and then they are often intrigued by how I use it so.

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Tamsen Webster: you know briefly the way that I use it, because these models are.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, you know this, but predictive models they they are giving, and they are giving their answers whenever they seem to be thinking. They're very much just looking at what, given all the information they've absorbed, what the most probable answer is.

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Tamsen Webster: and so in light of that I found it very helpful in 2 ways, one to help prove me wrong. Meaning.

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Tamsen Webster: it helps me understand where. What, again, given probability, people would take issue with with a particular message or an argument or a statement I'm trying to make. So that's very helpful for both me and on behalf of my clients I'm always transparent when I'm like I'm checking this one, Claude AI right now.

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Tamsen Webster: But the other way that I found it to be very useful is, I happened to start. I went back to school this summer and I started a doctoral program, and since it's been 25 years since I got my master's degrees, it's actually been really helpful not to write. I don't do it for that. But to help me understand

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Tamsen Webster: how, what like, what the academic expectation is of something. So, for instance, I'll write in an idea, and I'll say what academic theories seem to align with this, so that I can then go find them. Do the research, or I can ask it. What are the foundational papers on this, you know, that can help me do that. So

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Tamsen Webster: for all of those reasons, it's been super super, helpful, and it was also helpful in writing the new book. It was helping me structure things. It was analyzing. It was kind of like a pre-editor. I would write a chapter. I would give it to

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Tamsen Webster: at that point chat gpt, and I would say, You know, what, how could I make this stronger? And it oftentimes would say, you know it would be useful if you had an example here, and things like that. So I'm finding it very helpful, and I try to encourage my clients where it makes sense to experiment.

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Jack Hubbard: Well. And technology is great. The human side of it's really important. And I want to transition to that to your role as an idea strategist for Tedx, Cambridge. Talk about your role. It's an annual conference. I think 5,000 guests have been there over the period of years. Talk about that program.

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Tamsen Webster: Yeah, so. And and we've recently renamed ourselves to Tedx, New England, and that was to align with the fact that a we moved locations. So now, where we we our home is this beautiful performing Arts Center in Groton, Massachusetts, and it also is drawing from the fact that we are now the only

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Tamsen Webster: I like to call it a S

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Tamsen Webster: stem. Lots of S's stem focused Tedx event. And why? I'm adding S's extra s's because stem, meaning science, technology, engineering, and math. But I'm also given my doctoral pursuits big into the social sciences. So I think it should be

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Tamsen Webster: social sciences, science, you know, and going on from there. So for those not familiar, a Tedx is a locally and independently organized Ted Talk event. Tedx, Cambridge, which is where it started. It was one of the 1st licenses granted back in 2,008. I've been working with Tedx, Cambridge, now, Tedx, New England, since 2013

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Tamsen Webster: and my role these days is to work with again, primarily research scientists

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Tamsen Webster: to help them to do the English to English translation, essentially to help

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Tamsen Webster: articulate these oftentimes very complex ideas. In in talks that are, you know, personable, conversational, and importantly accessible to a lay non-research science audience. All in, you know. 10 to 18Â min.

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Tamsen Webster: But it's that work that's actually taught me quite a bit about the work that I do, because.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, I've long been just deeply fascinated in what makes an idea powerful enough for somebody to act on it.

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Tamsen Webster: and as I have learned more about that over the years and particularly this was kind of sped up when I started to work with with Tedx speakers.

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Tamsen Webster: I'm particularly interested in. How do we accelerate the understanding and adoption of new ideas. And since, as you know, the world moves really fast, and most leaders and business owners don't have a lot of time. How do we not only speed up the process on the other end? How can we actually

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Tamsen Webster: say something quite quickly? And so the Tedx work has been a wonderful living lab of figuring out. How can you take even a very complex idea and communicate it powerfully in a short amount of time?

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Jack Hubbard: Oh, that's great! Well, all of this has formed the basis of all your work, and one of those things that you've worked on is your 1st book. Find your red thread. What if? And by the way, the second book which we're going to talk about, say what they can't unhear. These titles are phenomenal.

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Tamsen Webster: Thank you.

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Jack Hubbard: About the 1st book. What's it all about? And what was your inspiration for writing the 1st one.

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Tamsen Webster: Yeah. So it was very intimately connected to Tedx and my work there. Actually, because up until that point, you know, I've now spent about 25 years in marketing, branding, message design, sales, design fundraising communications, all sorts of forms of managerial and organizational communications.

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Tamsen Webster: and up until that point

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Tamsen Webster: I was the one that was always coming up with a message, and I was always, you know, the the one who, you know, was at least the mouthpiece for the organization, or the person who was helping that person supplying the message for those people.

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Tamsen Webster: Obviously I can't give somebody else's Ted Talk, nor is it right for them to be speaking my words. And so when I 1st started with

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Tamsen Webster: you know Tedx, Cambridge, now New England this was the 1st time I was really in the position of

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Tamsen Webster: figuring out how to reverse engineer what I did for other people. And so how do I kind of take out like this this reverse engineer my brain and go. How do I create something that allows other people to

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Tamsen Webster: kind of implement what what I've learned? And in a way again, that is useful to busy people that is not overly complicated, and all of that. So where I you know, where I landed, was trying to figure out

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Tamsen Webster: kind of whatever existed as far as universal mechanisms for understanding and adopting ideas. And

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Tamsen Webster: it doesn't take long before you realize that story story structure storytelling is that magic code. We make sense of the world through story. When somebody tells a story, we're automatically engaged. We can pack a lot of contextual information into story. And yet a lot of these stem scientists and researchers

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Tamsen Webster: were not comfortable telling a once upon a time, you know, or when I was young. Kind of story. So my idea was.

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Tamsen Webster: what if we just you know, I figured out what the common elements of any kind of story were, and what would happen if we essentially deconstructed reverse engineered an idea into those pieces? Because.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, one of the things that one of the big insights that I had in that at that time period was that ideas aren't found, even though it feels that way. They're actually built right piece by piece by piece as we start to collect information. Then once they finally all come together, and if our fast instinctive brain delivers the idea, kind of

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Tamsen Webster: all solved right into our rational thinking brain, but that that step by step process still happens, and so find your red thread. Was this idea of

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Tamsen Webster: here are these, you know, I did a bunch of research. Here are these core elements that are in every story. And that book was capturing the process that by the time I had written it I had created and tested for about 5 years, and then captured it.

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Tamsen Webster: as in the book, so that people could essentially have like a little version of me on their shoulder, or really experience what it was like to work with me. One-on-one which I did, and I still do, but in case that wasn't accessible to somebody, or they just wanted to try it on them by themselves first.st

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Tamsen Webster: That was that. But when I 1st came up with it. Actually, it didn't have the red thread name I knew about the red thread separately as a as an idiom in typically Scandinavian and northern European countries.

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Tamsen Webster: In those countries it means kind of the the through line, the thing that makes things make sense a logical progression of ideas.

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Tamsen Webster: And then I was at dinner with friends, and I was like, I don't have a name for this process which is like goal problem, truth, change, action. And then I was like, but maybe I'm like.

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Tamsen Webster: of course, these 2 things fit, because not only is that what we're trying to produce with my process, my methodology, but the process itself turns out to mimic what's believed to be the origin story of that particular use of the of red thread as an idiom.

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Tamsen Webster: and what I mean by that is.

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Tamsen Webster: there's a red thread in just about every philosophy and culture in Asian cultures and Eastern cultures. For instance, they, the red thread is often what connects you to somebody else. It's actually a kind of a connection between people.

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Tamsen Webster: So this is a different red thread. But the red thread. That's kind of this idea of the through line is actually believed to come from the myth, and the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur and the Minotaur's labyrinth and quick version of this, the red thread is what he was given to trace his path through this labyrinth, this maze.

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Tamsen Webster: so that after defeating the Minotaur, he could still find his way back out, and since the red thread process very much did that, it could have reconstructed what was the path that a client's brain took to come up with an idea so that we could retrace that path

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Tamsen Webster: for somebody else. I was like, oh, red thread describes both the process and the outcome.

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Tamsen Webster: and there we go. And that was the story.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, it sounds like a great book, and I'm going to pick it up. But one of the benefits of a Linkedin, for example, is that you can actually get a lot of the ideas from the book through a Newsletter, and you have a red thread, Newsletter, and we'll talk about that again at the end, but I wanted to bring it up, because I'm subscribed to your Newsletter, and

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Jack Hubbard: writings are absolutely absolutely fabulous. Go on to the next book.

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Tamsen Webster: Sure.

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Jack Hubbard: Published in late 2024 on here.

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Jack Hubbard: and the 9 principles of lasting change. Now, what Tamsen doesn't know, and a lot of you, perhaps do know now is that when I turned 75 in January of 2025, January 9, th

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Jack Hubbard: my goal was to give a gift to everybody in my network, and people that reached out and said, Happy birthday. So I put together a list of 75 of the greatest books I've ever read, and this book is on it.

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Tamsen Webster: Holy cow!

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Tamsen Webster: Oh, Jack! Oh, my gosh!

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Jack Hubbard: I I love it.

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Tamsen Webster: Oh!

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Jack Hubbard: I love it, and it's dog eared and.

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Tamsen Webster: Saw the dog years. I'm like, Yeah.

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Jack Hubbard: Phenomenal book.

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Tamsen Webster: Thank you.

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Jack Hubbard: Say what they can on here 9 principles of lasting change. So why this book? And, by the way, if you are even considering. Well, is this a good book

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Jack Hubbard: on the front cover? Matt Dixon, the co-author of the Challenger sale, has a nice quote about the book

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Jack Hubbard: that's phenomenal. Matt's amazing. So talk about your inspiration for this one.

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Tamsen Webster: So they so there was. I'll start with a practical inspiration first.st As I mentioned, the red thread was very much for people who already knew me, and were familiar with my approach, and had already been introduced to some of these concepts and principles that are behind. Why I came up with the red thread, and why it works.

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Tamsen Webster: But the longer I was out here and looking for other people kind of talking about these principles, I just wasn't seeing them. And, in fact, I was seeing a lot of advice around persuasion and influence and persuasive communication that not only was

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Tamsen Webster: out of date, meaning there's been information that has since updated and goes against what those things say. But that goes against thing is important because some of these things that we've traditionally been taught, and just as a quick example like, make the pain of the status quo exceed the pain of change actually works against long term change.

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Tamsen Webster: So some of these things that are dominant in persuasion and influence do, in fact, work for short term, driving short term action. But not only do they not in certain cases drive or lead to long-term change. In many cases they can actually

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Tamsen Webster: work actively against that long term, change and damage your relationship with that particular person at the same time. And that wasn't just my opinion or my observation, that was based on not only now 25 years of doing this, but also 25 years of gathering information and research about

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Tamsen Webster: just so that I could make my own work better. And so that you know, when I was working with Tedx, Cambridge, and now, Tedx, New England. I could make their work better, and I kept looking around. I'm like nobody's talking about this, and so I was like, Well.

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Tamsen Webster: I guess if nobody's talking about this

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Tamsen Webster: well, so and then thus it was born, and in that case the title the title actually came from something I've been saying to to my clients for for years, because it again, it was based on what I what I observed.

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Tamsen Webster: and actually what it where I really 1st observed, it was not only from my own experience, where, in my own.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, efforts to make some transformational change.

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Tamsen Webster: Oftentimes there was something that you know

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Tamsen Webster: good grammar aside I couldn't unhear, and even if it didn't immediately switch something, it did it kind of like, corrupted, at least how I was seeing things, and it kind of kept me in what learning theorists call this disorienting dilemma, until I found a way to kind of integrate this new piece of information into a different

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Tamsen Webster: way of acting and thinking.

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Tamsen Webster: and I knew from the 13 years that I moonlighted as a weight watchers. Leader. That's a whole other story as a weight loss coach, where I was really working with people to make a different kind of transformational change. I observed the same thing was true there, that sometimes just the

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Tamsen Webster: either a statement or really kind of a kind of a tight little explanation, for, you know, a different way of thinking or looking at something sometimes would create an instant and transformational shift in thinking, and at other times it was, you know, I'd see people have the same thing that happened with me, which is that they would hear something, and you could tell you could see them go oh!

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Tamsen Webster: And and then over time it would kind of sit and sit with them. And so the more work that I did over the last, you know again. 10 plus years starting to help.

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Tamsen Webster: You know, people who were speaking not just and not just speakers. I do work with a lot of speakers, but you know a lot of scientists, a lot of leaders, a lot of founders who are trying to pitch, and all of that.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, casually, I just said, well, it really comes down to saying something they can't done here.

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Tamsen Webster: And

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Tamsen Webster: I've had multiple people over the years come back and say that was something that they couldn't unhear. So I figured when I was writing this book. What better? What better

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Tamsen Webster: phrase to use than something that I already knew other people couldn't unhear, since it was just this very meta way of kind of illustrating the point of the book. So that was the story behind that.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, it's it's great, and it and my lens in reading this was cultural

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Jack Hubbard: and and where? Where? I started to think about the culture, because it certainly is about personal change as well. If you think about your culture you talk about in the book you talk about 4 stakeholders that are involved in change. And that's where I started to think, yeah, you know, in in a culture, in a company.

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Jack Hubbard: it's tough to change. And even though it's important to do it. Talk about the 4 stakeholders and and and and their role in this change process.

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Tamsen Webster: Absolutely so. I think the 2 that people would recognize immediately are the people who are actively for you the ones that I call the actives

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Tamsen Webster: and those that are actively against you, which I call the antagonists.

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Tamsen Webster: And one way, and I'll get to the middle, too, in just a minute. But one way to think about these groups is this is kind of like their

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Tamsen Webster: their initial state about a proposed change or kind of how they think about leadership or whatever before they hear anything. Right? So they're going to be people who are predisposed to agree with you. Those are going to be the actives, and they often don't need a particularly

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Tamsen Webster: substantive case for whatever you're saying, because their past experience has been positive enough or their company people, and they just really believe in what you're doing. And if somebody says, this is what we're doing, they're like, yeah, absolutely. You've not steered me wrong. Let's go

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Tamsen Webster: the actives may have not had that experience, and or they may have a personal, they may be more personally risk and thus change averse. They may have had some negative experiences with you, with the organization, etc. And so again, those are the folks that are predisposed

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Tamsen Webster: to reject or resist.

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Tamsen Webster: Now that's important to understand, as is important to understand, that there are actually 2 groups in the middle. Now, a lot of times, people just say, well, there's just the people in between. And I'm like, no, no, no, actually, there's 2 different kinds of people in between, and what's tricky about them is they can look the same.

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Tamsen Webster: And so the 2 groups are what I call the indifference and the ambivalence.

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Tamsen Webster: And a lot of times we, we think those 2 words are the same, they're not indifferent means that they don't care. So these are folks that can kind of go one way or the other. And again, their predisposition is just like they've probably had some good experiences. They probably had some bad experiences. They don't really care about change too much as long as it doesn't get in their way. So again, they're kind of persuade. You know they're they're predisposed. Just go along to get along

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Tamsen Webster: the ambivalence do care, and the thing is, they can look like indifference, because they can also look like they could go either way. But they don't. They're not going either way, because they don't care. They're going either way because they do care equally.

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Tamsen Webster: And so these are folks that very important to you, because they are the folks that need to hear

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Tamsen Webster: a strong case.

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Tamsen Webster: and what I mean by a strong case is a case that's stronger than whatever they're telling themselves right now, for why, the change is better than the other thing that they care about. Right? So just as a quick example, I'll use a personal example for myself is that for 4 and a half years. I was the director of marketing communications at a performing Arts college here in Boston, and

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Tamsen Webster: performing arts, colleges, all colleges have a lot of financial pressures. But this this one as a performing Arts college had some extra special ones, because it's, you know, it's kind of an expensive kind of school to run.

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Tamsen Webster: and it became increasingly clear that for the long term health of the organization that it would need to merge with another institution. And

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Tamsen Webster: so I, as the Director of Marketing Communications, like.

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Tamsen Webster: completely believed in the You know, the mission and the long-term health of this organization, and at the same time. You know that I cared about that. I I cared that, you know. If it merged

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Tamsen Webster: it was going to merge with a larger institution, and it was very likely we were going to merge myself right out of a job. It turned out at that point that that initial merger didn't happen. It has now, like the Boston Conservatory, is now a part of Berkeley College of Music, so that you know it eventually did did do that. But that's what I mean by somebody who's ambivalent, meaning they care equally in in 2 directions. And so it ends up being something where.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, there there can be very important from an organizational culture standpoint or from a change management change communication standpoint because they won't just take anything you say on face value, not because they're against you, it's because they're actively aware of something pulling apart.

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Tamsen Webster: So I think it's really important A to understand that those different predispositions exist.

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Tamsen Webster: But B, to also understand that by hearing an intuitively agreeable explanation or argument for a change, actually.

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Tamsen Webster: all all 3 of the like non actives can become active supporters, and even better.

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Tamsen Webster: like a really well articulated, intuitively agreeable argument for an explanation can equip your actives with the language to help work on your behalf, because, again, they're already big fans of you and the train, but they can't just go around and saying, it's a great idea to everybody else. They need that language. They need that kind of that intuitively agreeable argument. So

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Tamsen Webster: I've just found it useful again. These were one of those things that I had just, you know over time, and you know my myself. It could have sorted people and understood, and was trying to make sure that we were crafting messages that would work for all the groups. And then I realized that I'm like, Oh, people aren't really talking about this, either. So that was one of the reasons why I wanted to include it.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, and and my lens, as I read that part, was not only cultural, but from a sales perspective, because.

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Tamsen Webster: Yes, of course. Yeah.

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Jack Hubbard: That's what I do. So if I'm on a call, obviously my goal is to move them into an advocate, and and remove all the negativity and even the ambivalence.

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Jack Hubbard: And so it's fascinating. But the other thing that's interesting about the book from a sales perspective. One of the 9 Principles is you talk about is every decision has a story, and I was thinking about as I was reading it, I was that part of the book I was thinking about a banker in in the Detroit area that I worked with a number of years ago.

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Jack Hubbard: and in the training we talk about, tell a story, tell a story to your prospect, and she goes. I don't have any stories. I made a loan.

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Jack Hubbard: I said. Well, let's back up a second and dissect that? Why did they need the loan? What are they going to do with the money? What will that do for the company? And as she started to think about. She goes. Oh, well, there is a story there.

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Tamsen Webster: Yeah.

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Jack Hubbard: Talk about storytelling, it seems to me based on some of the things you said about the Tedx program earlier. This is not an easy skill to to learn. For some people.

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Tamsen Webster: You know. So here's where. So I always take any comment like that as a challenge, not as a direct challenge, but as a as like, I take it as like, oh, here's a fun.

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Tamsen Webster: truly, to me it's fun, like a fun puzzle to solve, and that was how I viewed it when I was working when I 1st started working in this capacity for for the Tedx event, because, as I said, it's

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Tamsen Webster: a lot of researchers, you know, some people in particular, they're more technology in minded. And they're more engineering minded. If they're you know, they're just, you know, they consider themselves more rational people. It's actually deeply uncomfortable for them to tell a story. It doesn't feel aligned with who they are. And so when I was like, Okay, well, how do I? But and yet all this research is out there about

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Tamsen Webster: how powerful a story can be, how you know how stories just you know our brains automatically process them about like. That's how we make sense of the world, not not because we've heard a story. And it was this next discovery that really unlocked it. It's story is so powerful, not because when we hear one.

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Tamsen Webster: it like does something magical, it's because, literally, pre-consciously, our brains are putting together these cause and effect relationships. And so when we think about story in terms of how our brains look at story, it isn't like once upon a time, it really is these elements of this cause and effect relationship. You know, you see, something happen.

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Tamsen Webster: And you see something happen as a result. And then you see enough over time that your brain starts to like. Remember those things, and it starts to make assumptions, you know, or take information that you've learned kind of consciously and start to use that as explanation for why that thing happened. So you know, this happened because this happened. And if I do this, this will happen because this has happened in the past, or you know this person acted this way, because.

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Tamsen Webster: you know again, all preconsciously, that usually means this other thing is true.

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Tamsen Webster: And so this is what we actually mean when people talk about like

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Tamsen Webster: how, why, and how we are wired for story, and how powerful that is.

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Tamsen Webster: And so that's what led me to say, okay, how can I make storytelling a skill that is not difficult to learn? How can I make it a process that somebody who is

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Tamsen Webster: more process oriented can feel comfortable with. And this is where I started to think I'm like, Oh, well, if this is how we just. It's just about the ordering, the types, the nature, and the order of the information. That's all that creates a story. So you know story. And this is what I explain in find your red thread, you know. There, there are these Major, like flash points in a story. There's there's there are moments that start the story, moments that turn the story, moments that that

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Tamsen Webster: finish the story. And that are true, no matter the kind of story.

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Tamsen Webster: So those points are the, you know. The 1st one is what I call the goal, and that is when we discover, like what somebody wants and doesn't yet have right? And so it's it's kind of like, you know, the way our brain interprets it is. This is this is why they were doing this. They? They were trying to do this thing, and our brains will say.

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Tamsen Webster: I want this thing. Therefore what should I do? Right? It's like, it's the start of a story.

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Tamsen Webster: But if you think about classic stories, that thing that somebody wants at the beginning is usually not the actual conflict at the core of the story right? It's the thing that they think they want.

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Tamsen Webster: And then something else happens, right? Something else happens that gets in the way. And they realize there's something else that they either need to solve instead, or that they have to solve 1st before they can get that other thing.

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Tamsen Webster: So I love to use Disney movies, because that is, they are at least the most reliable that people have seen. So if you think about something like the little mermaid, what does she want? She wants to be where the people are right? She wants to be with them. She wants to see them dancing. That's what she thinks the problem is, and in trying to solve that problem

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Tamsen Webster: she goes to the Sea Witch. She trades her her voice for her legs. Now she's got a different problem, because in order to get her legs, you know her, her voice back.

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Tamsen Webster: she has to get the I mean, it's very traditional. But she, you know she has to get the Prince to fall in love with her. And yet how was she supposed to do that with no voice?

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Tamsen Webster: Right? So those are the 1st 2 pieces a goal, and what I call, you know, the real problem.

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Tamsen Webster: And then a piece that a lot of story structures that are out there, miss, but it has been present in

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Tamsen Webster: story structure all the way back to Aristotle. Who's the one who gave us the 3 act structure to begin with, and Aristotle tells us that still, like right at the end of that somewhere in that second act, in this kind of conflict piece, once this problem is introduced.

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Tamsen Webster: There is what he called an anagnoresis, roughly translated. Let's call it a moment of truth, a moment of recognition when the character recognizes the true nature of their circumstances, and realizes that. Oh, my gosh! It's actually me that people fall in love with. It's it's you know I don't like. There's value to who I am as I am. I don't have to be anything other than I am in order to get what I want

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Tamsen Webster: back to the little mermaid, and that moment of truth which is the 3rd piece goal problem. Truth

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Tamsen Webster: enforces a choice about what to do now like. Okay. Well, given that. That's true. Given that this is true. And this problem is happening. And I wanted this thing. What do I need to do? And that usually means I need to usually give up what I was doing before

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Tamsen Webster: in order to solve it all. And so that leads to the 4th thing, which is a change.

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Tamsen Webster: And then, in order to really wrap up the story, we need to know. Okay, well, what did they do to put those change that change into place the actions, and then, like stories end when we essentially go back to the beginning, did did the main character get what they want or not?

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Tamsen Webster: And so, by looking at these things. A goal, a problem, a truth, a change, an action. We could. I could take really any idea, as I discovered and say, well, what's the question that people are asking now, or that you were asking before you came up with this, what did you discover the real problem to be

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Tamsen Webster: right, or what will the real problem be if you're let's say, you know, talking, you know, in a sales concept, saying, I know that you're trying to like, increase your efficiency in your organization right now. That's that's your known problem.

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Tamsen Webster: But the but the unknown problem might be that we are focusing so much on kind of those outcomes that we haven't actually focused so much on the effort required to get those outcomes.

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Tamsen Webster: That's the real problem we have to solve. And that's a problem, because effort by definition is usually not efficient. Right? Like wasted effort, is inefficient.

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Tamsen Webster: Now that creates a problem that has to get solved before we can increase efficiency. But we still don't know what to do with it. Right? So that's where that truth comes in.

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Tamsen Webster: and that's where we would introduce some other thing, that again, your prospect, your client, your customer, would already agree, is true.

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Tamsen Webster: right about what to do differently right? And it could be something like

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Tamsen Webster: I don't know. Let's say that you're the solution that you're presenting is something about visibility, right? And so you can say, all right. Well, the the more clearly we can see, you know, the process is, the more clearly we can see where there are opportunities for efficiency. Oh, something like that. And so, therefore, right, what are we doing for we're looking for? You know, we need to increase visibility into our, you know.

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Tamsen Webster: efficiency outcomes right? So. And therefore that's what our an action. That's what our product does by giving you a dashboard or researching these reports, or whatever

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Tamsen Webster: we are now giving you the answer to this.

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Tamsen Webster: and so you notice I didn't say, well, once upon a time there was a customer who wanted to do XI was like, well, here's what you want. Here's the problem. Here's the truth. Here's the change. Don't worry. I got you. Here's the solution for it. And look at all the other things you're going to get as a result. So

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Tamsen Webster: I do believe it's a teachable skill, and I've seen it to be a teachable skill. And the thing to really understand is that

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Tamsen Webster: the key is story structure, not just a story. And really, anything can be reverse engineered into story structure. And when you do that you get not only the understanding benefits of

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Tamsen Webster: a story, meaning it kind of directly uploads your idea to the story processors of somebody else's brain, because that happens, you get a lot of a lot less loss of information or misunderstanding because there aren't

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Tamsen Webster: holes in the story or holes in the underlying argument that somebody's filling in themselves and therefore potentially, incorrectly.

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Tamsen Webster: and even though we don't realize it, it's actually creating this kind of you know this, this both intellectual and emotional engagement all the way through, because it's saying you've got this question, and you've struggled to answer it. Yes, yes. Why.

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Tamsen Webster: oh, like how does that feel? Not good? But oh, here's the reason. Oh, good! Now there's an answer. Oh, but no! That opens up a new problem. Oh, shoot! But now, what? Oh, well, that's oh, right, this is true, that means and then their brain starts to do this kind of calculation on their own.

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Tamsen Webster: They're kind of arriving at the conclusion you want them to arrive at right at the point that you would want to arrive. You know you want them to be there. So they're kind of doing that mental work themselves.

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Tamsen Webster: And then you're there to say, and that's what our service does, or that's how we embody like, that's what we're doing with. You know, this idea, this change is what our product incorporates. Right like. That's the delivery or our service, or our product is the delivery mechanism for that approach.

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Tamsen Webster: And at that point, then you're just giving them the details of what it looks like, and then showing them all the other benefits they get. As a result.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, and that that's truly a skill and an art.

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Jack Hubbard: Here's the other art is trying to get people bankers

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Jack Hubbard: who may not believe in stories to actually do them. And so, as a as a leader, I have to create an environment where

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Jack Hubbard: I teach, and then I coach, and then I allow, and one of the principles that one of the chapters in the book you talk about empowerment over coercion.

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Tamsen Webster: Yes.

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Jack Hubbard: I want you to tell stories because it will benefit the customer, and it will benefit you. Let me show you versus. You'd better tell a story on every sales, call, talk about empowerment over coercion.

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Tamsen Webster: Well, so it is the difference between internally driven action and externally driven action. And people aren't dogs. But

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Tamsen Webster: dogs are a useful way to like to articulate this principle. So I've got 2 dogs. Love them hazel walnut but these were not dogs that we've had since puppyhood. We we adopted them both as young adults, and I mean the dogs were young. Adults were

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Tamsen Webster: well into our fifties.

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Tamsen Webster: But both of them were. They are retired race dogs like. So both of them are greyhounds, and so they weren't taught to be pets. So we got help with understanding like how to help them learn to be a pet. They were really good at their other job, but we they needed to learn to be a pet. And so we worked with a trainer who explained that dogs have 2 automatic motivations, like 2 things that they always like you can rely on

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Tamsen Webster: about like that. Are they are internally driven to do one

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Tamsen Webster: keep doing what they like doing. I like to play. I like to meet my friends. I like my belly rubs, and then the other thing is to stop doing what they don't like doing. I don't like the rain, it's too cold. It's wet outside. I don't like this bath. And so

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Tamsen Webster: what, she explained was the more that we could align anything that we wanted them to do with those 2 things like, how can we make something that we want them to do kind of

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Tamsen Webster: part of something that they want to keep doing, which is why, you know, kind of like giving them treats helps, because now they start to associate on their own Pavlov style, that if I do this, this other thing happens, and then they just kind of get to a point where they actively want that thing, because that's where they know they get to go outside. They get to go, see their friends, etc.

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Tamsen Webster: or like, how do we avoid trying to get them to do something in such a way that it activates that stop doing some. I don't like this. I don't want to do it because I don't like anything about this.

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Tamsen Webster: Now, what's important to understand is that humans kind of like again, much more sophisticated than dogs. But we also have the same 2 automatic sources of internal motivation. Right? We are also internally motivated to keep doing what we like doing and just stop doing what we don't and anything else just like with a dog, frankly, is a negotiation right? And so it means that

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Tamsen Webster: if it isn't something that somebody inherently wants to do.

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Tamsen Webster: then you are left only with generally

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Tamsen Webster: external or in extrinsic sources of of

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Tamsen Webster: moving right. And so that's like those are those are consequences and rewards. That's, you know, punishment. And you know, and bonuses right?

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Tamsen Webster: And those work. But they don't.

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Tamsen Webster: Again, they'll drive action. But they're not going to create an internally driven like, I want to do this because I want to do this, not I want to do this because I'm going to get this thing, or if I don't do this, I'm going to get you know I'm going to get punished.

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Tamsen Webster: And so you know, so much of the book is really about aligning.

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Tamsen Webster: However, you present a change

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Tamsen Webster: with something that somebody already likes doing, or something that somebody already feels that they're strong, at, which is one of the reasons why, you know, for the red thread by finding a process right? And it's 1 that's now been tested. It's research backed. It's you know it's not. I haven't run it through like empirical academic testing yet, but the concepts behind it are theory, all based in strong academic theory.

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Tamsen Webster: And now it's been in the market now for 8 years, and I've I've tested the Bejesus out of it.

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Tamsen Webster: That felt very comfortable to anybody who feels like I may not feel like I don't want. I don't want to tell a story. I want to stop doing that. I don't like it into. I like following processes. I'm really good at formulas and frameworks, and I could just say, We'll just do this.

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Tamsen Webster: And so for somebody who may otherwise be resistant saying, You know, salespeople, there's some pretty reliable, internally motivated things that all sales people want right like they want to close the deal. My experience has been that most salespeople really actually want to build, to build a legitimate relationship with people. They don't want to manipulate people. They don't want to coerce people into a decision. Some do.

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Tamsen Webster: Your mileage may vary, but you know I was always uncomfortable with that approach to sales personally.

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Tamsen Webster: but what I found was is like, if I could say, Okay, if you want to, if you want to make more money faster, if you want to build solid relationships with people.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, and in essence that's kind of what I'm arguing for with this with this book, which is why I was so thrilled when Matt Dixon endorsed it. Because

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Tamsen Webster: he's the he's the co-author of the challenger sale. He's part of the reason why people started going so hard against. No, you're doing it wrong, but that's never what he intended in that book. So.

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Tamsen Webster: to sum that up, what I'm saying is, if we can say, Hey, here's a thing that I know you as a banker, as a person in sales are trying to do.

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Tamsen Webster: and based on this principle that everybody is going to use this process of cause and effect to make sense of what you're saying.

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Tamsen Webster: And in order to make sense of that thing, they're going to fill in the blanks

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Tamsen Webster: of that story with anything. If you don't do it, they're going to fill in the blanks with whatever they believe to be true.

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Tamsen Webster: which is dangerous as far as the sales go, because they may have different assumptions. They may fill in those blanks differently than you, which means, if you don't give them that full story, and I don't mean once upon a time when I was 3, I climbed Everest and all one leg. I mean.

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Tamsen Webster: you know, I'm gonna guess like, here's what I've seen that most people like you have this question, what I've seen based on my experience. This is the real problem that that we actually have to solve first.st Here's why that's such a problem. And that here's why is something that they already understand, acknowledge, agree with.

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Tamsen Webster: and not only that this other thing is true moment of truth, which is why I have seen so many of my clients, and folks like you be successful when they do. X.

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Tamsen Webster: Are you interested in hearing more.

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Tamsen Webster: Oh, great. Okay. Well, let me talk to you about how this works, or let me give you a little bit more information about this, this particular challenge of focusing on this rather than this. So that's basically what I've found is that

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Tamsen Webster: you know another way, that I say that every decision has a story in the book is that every action anybody takes

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Tamsen Webster: ends an internal argument in their head about why that action makes sense.

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Tamsen Webster: and most people would agree with that. Science. Science agrees, too. But again, it's 1 of those things we intuitively agree with. You're like, yeah, absolutely. I'm not going to do something if it doesn't like, satisfy some kind of internal logic.

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Tamsen Webster: Well, that's true of your clients and prospects, too. They're also going to operate on some kind of internal logic.

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Tamsen Webster: what is both the challenge and the answer is that the arguments we agree with

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Tamsen Webster: are based on beliefs. We already have

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Tamsen Webster: meaning in that moment. That gut check on. Does this like track with my logic is not something where you are assessing point by point and making pro and con columns. It's actually something delivered to you from your fast brain of going. Does it check? Does it check with what I know to be true? What I believe to be true, but what I know to be true.

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Tamsen Webster: And so if you take these 2 things together, then really what the new book is arguing for, and is what is implicit in. Find your red thread. Is that what we're doing is we're building that argument

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Tamsen Webster: out of elements that your audience already, or at least intuitively, agrees with

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Tamsen Webster: that. It's that it answers a question that they actively want an answer to. They actively and knowingly want an answer to. It's the the solution that you're offering is based on principles or beliefs they already hold right. And thanks to Logic

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Tamsen Webster: and Aristotle again, by the way.

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Tamsen Webster: if they believe those 2, if they agree, if that is in fact something they want, and they agree. Both of those principles are true, then any approach which your service or product encompasses, that embodies those 2 things

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Tamsen Webster: will be something that they also agree is true in principle.

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Tamsen Webster: Now, do you have work to do from there about what it looks like in practice, and making sure they, you know, and and working with them to find how how they can turn that kind of initial agreement into something that they that you and they can deliver on. Yes.

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Tamsen Webster: but I find that so often

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Tamsen Webster: like that we try to combine those steps, that if we show to people

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Tamsen Webster: how how it's possible in practice that somehow they'll figure out why it would work in principle. And again, just over and over again. What I've seen is while it feels in the moment like we're adding a step.

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Tamsen Webster: We're actually saving a bunch of steps because

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Tamsen Webster: nobody can really process whether or not something's possible in practice

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Tamsen Webster: until there is that kind of.

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Tamsen Webster: I understand now, intuitively and intellectually, why this would work.

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Tamsen Webster: Not that it does, but why it would, and then we move on from there.

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Jack Hubbard: Now you can see why I've added this book, and I added it

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Jack Hubbard: to my 75 all time. Greatest books that I've ever read. I love it because it it's cultural. It's personal

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Jack Hubbard: and it is. There's a it doesn't directly talk about sales, but it is involved in sales, and so everybody can benefit from this book. Talk about how people can get a hold of you. Talk about your red thread, newsletter. How can people reach you?

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Tamsen Webster: Absolutely. So. The online home for all the ways that I work with people these days is at messagedesigninstitute.com. That's the company site, and you can sign up for the newsletter there also, if you follow me on Linkedin or Message Design Institute on Linkedin. That's another way to get the to get the newsletter.

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Tamsen Webster: Yeah. And I myself, if you're interested in having me come, speak, or you know, fireside chat with organizations, etc. Can find that [email protected].

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Jack Hubbard: And I gotta tell you that Amy Tamsen's assistant is phenomenal, and this conversation with was absolutely phenomenal. All the best with the book. It's awesome, and thanks for sharing some of your time, Thompson. I really appreciate it.

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Tamsen Webster: My pleasure, Jack. Thanks so much.

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Jack Hubbard: Okay.

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Tamsen Webster: Super. Thank you, sir.

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Jack Hubbard: That's for you.

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Tamsen Webster: Great.

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Jack Hubbard: It was great.

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Tamsen Webster: Thank you.

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Jack Hubbard: Good, good, the books really really good and.

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Tamsen Webster: I'm so honored. Yeah, that you're including it in your list. That is, I mean, it's just. I'm really, truly truly honored on that.

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Jack Hubbard: Well, it it, you know, I think I don't. You're in a lot of podcasts. And I don't know if this is true, but a lot of people from what my guests tell me is that podcast hosts don't read the book.

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Jack Hubbard: I read the book. I mean, I've I've got it. Dog eared all over the place.

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Tamsen Webster: I love that. I saw that, and I thank you.

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Jack Hubbard: Yeah, it's it's really, really good. And now I what I like to do is once I do the interview and hear your voice, I'm gonna go back and read it in your voice, so I'll be.

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Tamsen Webster: Super. Well, I did do record the audio book. So if you want to like, actually hear it, my voice hear the audio book so.

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Jack Hubbard: I'll let you know when this is on. You can do any marketing that you want with it. And I really appreciate your time today.

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Tamsen Webster: Oh, thanks so much, Jack, all right. Take care bye.